The problem with that statement is that you're assuming that "lr" would always be pronounced like "ler". This isn't the case. In the nonexistent {lrfu}, it sounds like {lerfu} because the "r" is syllabic. A syllabic "r" is basically the same sound as "er" because it is pronounced with a short .ybu in front, {yr}, kind of like the "ir" in "fir (tree)". That doesn't mean when {lr} occurs it is always pronounced like that: in {cilre}, for instance, it is not a syllabic r - {cilre} isn't pronounced "sheel-e-re", it's pronounced "sheel-re".
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
But it IS possible to have "lr" occur in a word and if "lr" sounds identical to "ler" then lojban loses audio-visual isomorphism.On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see how that's a problem. I can't imagine a scenario in which "lrfu" would occur, let alone one in which it could be confused with {lerfu}.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
If that's the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu" sound indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled tapped or whathaveyou
On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:>>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*e*r", ""w*e*t", "p*e*st",
> Yeah, well, I'd have to hear you say it, because I pronounce "pear", "pair",
> and "pare" the same: {peir}.
>
> Regardless, I'm pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is incorrect,
> because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" in payer".
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described as like the "ay" in "pay" which
>> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" is a bad example. I
>> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes with "pear" and NOT "payer"
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the English "air" is {eir}, not
>>> etc. The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"<http://dag.github.com/cll/2/2/>,>>> mid vowel" <http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonapp.html>,
>>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as "e [E] ([e]): a front
>>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t"<http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels>,
>>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*e*t, l*e*ns"<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Pronunciation+guide+in+English>
>>> .
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it? I thought the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced like
>>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or tapped or whatever). I think
>>>> if I heard someone in lojban say {lrfu} as though it rymed with "smurf-u" I
>>>> would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My point is that the "er" in "better" is pronounced comparably to the
>>>>> "er" in "lerfu".
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <
>>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} or if I'm enunciating as {betyr}
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you pronounce the English word better as "betteir"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral Lamb <jms1992@comcast.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While trying to get back into learning lojban, I came across
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> I thought was rather important. When saying the word "lerfu" (which
>>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it sounds like I'm saying
>>>>>>>> "leirfu" (even though that isn't a word xD ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lojban the same way I would in english,
>>>>>>>> and I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing the "e"
>>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't help but say it like "leirfu". Using a
>>>>>>>> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e" sound doesn't
>>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there any other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I think I
>>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the time, but I'm certainly not perfect.
>>>>>>>> Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it (1:15)
>>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for practice.
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCr1bV8kGk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is this a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Alex R
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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