Re: [lojban-beginners] A seemingly simple sentence with layered complexity

["David Gowers (kampu)" <00ai99@gmail.com>]

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
> A square has four equal sides.
>
> {lo kubykurfa se pagbu vo dunli korbi} is an almost literal translation, but
> I feel like it's unacceptably vague for lojban.
{lo kubykerfa *ku* se pagbu vo dunli korbi}
for a start

possibly 'ka kubli fi li vo' amounts to 'four equal sides'.. all {lo
kubli} have equal sides.

I suggest something like {lo kubykurfa ku ckaji lo ka kubli li re li vo}.
When translating from English (or French, or..), you need to be wary
of words like 'has', even if you think you know what they mean in the
context. In this case, it seems to have prompted you to think as if
'having four equal sides' is the *only* important property of a
square.
(if you really think that, you could use {pavykai})

>
> Starting with choices of translations for the word "square": {kurfa} is not
> precise enough, as it can mean rectangle, {kubykurfa} could mean cube, but
> not unless context or an explicit dimension place indicate it, and
> {pitkubykurfa} is necessarily planar.
>
> ta'o {sa'orkurfa} seems like a horrible word to mean rhombus/diamond, since
> {kurfa} has right angles but not necessarily equal sides, and a rhombus has
> necessarily equal sides but not necessarily right angles.
>
> ta'onai {kubykurfa} seems to be a good choice to mean "square".
>
> The English "has" means "is made up of", so {pagbu} and {gunma} seem to be
> the reasonable choices.  I can't figure out which one is more appropriate.
> ji'a, both seem to lack the implication that the parts are all there is,
> va'i we're not talking about a hexagon with side-lengths 4,4,4,4,2,1 (maybe
> {vo broda noi dunli}).

do you think it's genuinely true that a square is 'only' made up of four sides?
personally I suggest that a square is a hypercube of dimension 2.

to'u the non-exclusivity of the definitions is probably intentional..
even for most abstract concepts, we don't know exhaustively what they
are made up of.

If you really want to say that in that manner, what about {rolpau}?
(I contemplated mulpau, which is a bit ambiguous; also arguably {lo
kubykerfa ku munje fi vo te kubli}; and {zo kubykurfa valsi lo kubli
be li re bei li vo} (my favorite))



>
> Next, what should I use for "equal"?  li'a I need {dunli}, but should I use
> it as part of a tanru or in a subordinate clause in a tanru logical
> connection, or something else?
>
> Now for "sides", {korbi} and {mlana} seem to be the obvious choices, but
> neither seems quite right.
korbi seems okay to me-- it's just that equal length/angle relation
edges are implied.

dunli zei korbi -> dunkoi?

David

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