Re: [lojban-beginners] Day standard

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _real_
> lesson, but post-xorlo it's something to do with a lesson, determined from
> context.

  Hmm.. perhaps you are correct.  Perhaps I've just internalized xorlo
so much that I don't realize I'm doing so.  But I'm not sure.

>
> Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that in lojban?) one
> might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; otherwise, I feel
> like some sort of implicit raising is occurring.
>
> As for pointing to a dog:  you're not requiring that something which is
> really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is just fine.

  Well, I agree with that, which is why I amended that to the "mi
cadzu lo clani" example.  The "lo clani" is definitely a surface to
walk on, whether or not I say so explicitly, since it's a se cadzu.
So the question is does it imply that the thing that I'm walking on is
clani in all other contexts other than a clani se cadzu?  So, let's
cast the sentence differently.  Could I say (pre-xorlo) "mi cadzu lo
danlu" to mean that I'm walking down on animal tracks, or a path made
by animals?  The same answer should apply to the original "lo ctufau"
question.  If you would answer (as I anticipate you would) that
pre-xorlo the answer is "no", then the pre-xorlo solution to both is
the same -- change "lo" to "le".  Then we are making no veridical
claims, and are purely being descriptive.
               --gejyspa

>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permissible due
>> > to
>> > xorlo.  Is there a more precise way to fill in the "by standard x"?
>> >
>>  I don't know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps you are
>> thinking about it as a natlang speaker.  Xorlo or not, when you put
>> something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definition_
>> some type of manri. "lo ctufau" simply specifies what type of manri it
>> is -- it's a ctufau manri.  I could explicitly _say_ "lo ctufau
>> manri", but it's not necessary, and more than it's necessary, when
>> pointing to a dog, to say "ta barda gerku" instead of "ta barda".
>> Doesn't make it any less of a dog, you're just calling out the salient
>> feature you want to express, that it's big.  Describing a te bavlamdei
>> as a ctufau doesn't make it any less of a te bavlamdei.
>>
>>  I'm probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope my point
>> is getting across.  (Perhaps it would make more sense if I used a more
>> analgous sentence, like "mi cadzu lo clani"?)
>>
>>                --gejyspa
>>
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>
>
>
> --
>           Alex R
>

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