[lojban-beginners] semi-topical B

["Ken Comer" <me@kencomer.com>]

We strayed pretty far off-topic and I was interested in hearing more of your
criticism, so I decided to go offline.  I hope you don't mind.

> > > > These beings have a "hard-wired" instinctual understanding of
> > > > lojban,
> > Moreover, the story also presupposes that engrams can be
> > established genetically (in the same sort of way that a spider
> > knows how to weave a web) as a result of custom-designed genes on
> > the X chromosome (or any chromosome, for that matter).
>
> See, now, there's the problem; the evidence is that human brains are
> As Full As They Can Possibly get; that's why we aren't born knowing
> how to walk.  Adding something as complicated as language to
> genetic brain structure requires a number of things:
>
> 1.  It requires genetics to do something much more complicated then
> they have ever been seen to do in nature.

This is pretty far in the future, and this is the 57th generation (approx)
of a race designed for competitive curiosity whose first generation came out
of the tank more than 1000 years from now.  Ambrose Brownhill, who first
came up with the idea was ostracized (and marked for death) for it because
the overwhelming portion of humanity had no desire to see what the next tier
on the evolutionary ladder might be.

Ambrose decided that the next tier would actually come in several shapes.
He created an Engineer race (with occasional atavistic Artists), a
Warrior/Philosopher race, and a Pure Research race.  Between them, they have
been working for continual improvement in their own genotypes and post-natal
enhancements.  They also altered their genotypes to fit planets the planets
they live in/on, which planets were engineered from a state of (mostly) bare
rock into environments that suited their personality.

"Complicated," I think I can get away with.

> 2.  It probably requires that the babies be born able to speak and
> walk and think coherently and such, otherwise you're going to have
> to explain how something as complicated as a whole language can
> possibly be part of *latent* brain development, at which I wish you
> luck.

Because walking is idiosyncratic not only with the person, but the person's
current body shape and size, I did not plan on making that a part of the
pre-natal training.  Similarly, talking for infants--who can breath while
suckling/swallowing without aspirating whatever they're drinking because of
something to do with their pharynx, can't recall exactly what--is a
different process than for adults, including mimicking/approximating some
sounds (long e?) which they are physically unable to articulate, and
probably even different for babies with teeth and without.

And yes, latent brain/mind development was part of the "implantation" that I
had in mind.  Complete knowledge of lojban arrives in their brain once they
have gone through the growth/learning-to-learn process.  I hadn't thought
about exactly when it would hit because their society doesn't care at all
about developing children until they pass their "adulthood tests."  Three
out of four do not.  (I know that there are problems with having children
who are not raised in a caring and nurturing environment.  These problems
have been mostly solved by this race, and the narcissistic personality
disorder shared by almost all of their kind is a result of those problems
that they have not solved.)

If I'm pressed to provide an exact time when full language knowledge (plus
other useful training), I would probably describe it as being tied to onset
of puberty, which would let me wave my hands magically to solve some of the
problems you mention.  I can probably avoid being too specific because only
a few of this race would be acquainted with the process.

> 3.  It will without question require more brain space then we
> currently have, so they'll either need to give something else up
> (allow me to suggest emotional centers for a start) or much bigger
> heads.

Interesting point.

I can think of six other ways that this could be resolved:

1) Two lumps of gray matter in boney balls attached to the inside of the
floating ribs and the spine.

2) A cyborg arrangements

3) a physical alteration of the body to accommodate incorporation of "very
long-term memory," which would be stored as data in quantum-computers
physically outside the body.

3A) I already have a characteristics for this race that, as part of their
adulthood ritual, they are provided with a flexible crown (fillet) and which
allows them to send communication to their computer networks [formatted for
transmission by nanobots in the her  (all uebersapient members of this race
are female) head]  which monitor junctures all around the brain.
Investigation into memory have revealed what seems to be a constant process
of re-remembering going on, where memories are "re-written" on a regular
basis.  Adulthood might include the moment when all of their memories of
events of her youth are moved into "offline" [offbrain?] storage.

3B) All Nelpei adults have a "familiar" custom made at adulthood.  Carrying
around artificial memory module packs might be part of their function.
Ooooh!  I love that one!!!

4) Symbiobotic: this race has fur that can be color-changed at will.  It
could be that this fur contains both artificial and natural parts, and one
of their function was to act as RAM.  That one's nifty, too.  I think I just
added 3&4 to my story, and consequently doubled its length.  Ugh.

5) Nanobots in her body contain RAM

6) She has a symbiote which was at conception implanted through
genetically-modified heredity.

> > If it still sounds unreasonable, then I'm disappointed because I
> > failed to establish suspension of disbelief.  Nonetheless, I feel
> > that there is a reasonable scientific basis to believe that a
> > sufficiently advanced technology could accomplish pre-natal and/or
> > hereditary incorporation of knowledge about lojban (and other
> > subjects) into a child.
>
> "Pre-natal" and "hereditary" are *completely* different issues,
> although if you're going to have it be pre-natal rather then
> neo-natal, you can't have the babies being delivered through the
> vaginal canal: one of the reasons babies start out so stupid is that
> their heads are too small to fit, and get rather severely crushed,
> so the brain needs to be neurologically elastic enough to withstand
> it.

I know that that they're different-- that's why I mentioned both.

I had previously thought of the difficulty of enhancing a fetus in vivo, so
had already decided on a race that could not reproduce without mechanical
aid.  They use artificial wombs clone-grown from copies of the genetic
mother.

> Furthermore, the brain grows *substantially* in the first five
> years, so again, you're going to have to explain how you fit
> language into the smaller brain.

I don't, actually.  The first 11-23 years of their lives are mostly "erased"
at the adolescence, and I can either wave my hands and make the problem go
away by saying, "And thus, it came to pass," or could use any method
described above.

> Allow me to strongly suggest that you have something like latent
> nanites that start re-writing things as soon as the language centers
> have developed enough (around 2 years old).

Not bad.  I might use that.

> Of course, very few of your readers are likely to be
> Singularitarians who study cognition research in their spare time,
> so you are certainly welcome to ignore me as way too picky.  :-)

No offense taken, and feel free to continue.  Interesting conversation.
--
From the Certified Mind of Ken Comer (never trust an uncertifiable brain)
"I love America because they make great horror movies."
   -- an Iraqi citizen who disapproves of the occupation, but otherwise
likes the USA
      (Source: AFP Fri Oct 31, 6:23 AM ET)

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