[lojban-beginners] Re: lojban qua lingua franca

[Andrew Archibald <archibal@math.mcgill.ca>]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:54:32PM -0800, Jorge Llambías wrote:

> Ok, then {lo vofli be lo makfioga} is indeed more precise.
> It just seemed that "yogic flyer" in English can be about as
> imprecise as (lo makfioga vofli} in Lojban. Tanru don't imply
> a vague association, they are just a vague form of expression.
> The actual association can be quite precise, even if not 
> precisely expressed.

Ah.  Sorry, I was confused about your sentence (I was confusing it
with {lo vofli pe makfioga}).  I was trying to express the concept,
not translate the English expression. 

> > As for the {makf} rafsi,
> > it covers magic and the supernatural; I'd say that to the extent
> > that yoga allows them to fly, it's supernatural.  
> 
> I don't know much about yoga really. I would have said it's a form 
> of meditation. Perhaps a yogi could be a menzajba.

Well, there seem to be lots for forms of yoga, ranging from worhsip
and meditation (indian yoga) through fitness regimen, exercise craze 
(power yoga), and improbable national defense (yogic flyers and the 
Natural Law party (of Canada)) to circus sideshow (basti is a yoga 
technique where practicioners practice the ability to draw water up 
into their recta).

> {makfioga} is a valid fu'ivla, but it is not formed in the normal
> way type-4 fu'ivla are formed from gismu. The standard form would
> be {makfrxioga}  

Hmm.  I must say I'd rather pronounce my version.  Let me look at the
CLL.

It appears that in their terminology, what I am looking for is a Stage
3 fu'ivla, as it has a rafsi qualifier.  As you say, it meets the
criteria for fu'ivla, but it does not follow the algorithm.  But
following the algorithm in this case leads irreducibly to a
four-consonant cluster, which I personally find rather difficult.  In
fact, for many many gismu we will end up with such a cluster: if the
four-letter rafsi has a vowel as its second letter, which is the case
for 1104 gismu, then it must end with a pair of consonants; the
algorithm always ensures that at least two more follow.  Since this is
only one suggested algorithm, have people devised their own,
guaranteed-safe, procedures?  Or do people rely on fu'ivla having been
generated using the algorithm to recognize them?


Looking at the CLL, a step in the lujvo-making algorithm is not clear
to me:  suppose I want to make a lujvo out of {makfu nazbu}.  That
would be {makfynazbu}?  The point of confusion is this: 

Step 4 is "Add hyphen letters where necessary. It is illegal to add a
hyphen at a place that is not required by this algorithm." 

Steps 4 a through c describe hyphenations; but are these "always put a
hyphen" or "if you put a hyphen, this is how"?  

Specifically, will a four-letter rafsi always be followed by a "y" in
lujvo?  (this never occurs in /usr/share/lojban/lujvo-list)



Thanks,
Andrew