[lojban-beginners] Re: cmavo can be selbri?

["Adam D. Lopresto" <adam@pubcrawler.org>]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Starling wrote:

> "Adam D. Lopresto" <adam@pubcrawler.org> writes:
>
> > Well, if you really wanted to say "xu is a member of the set of cmavo" that
> > would be {zo xu cmima lo'i cmavo}, but I think what you really want to say is
> > "xu is a cmavo" which is very simply {zo xu cmavo}.
>
> Actually my question had to do with whether all cmavo could be used as
> the selbri in a bridi.  'xu' cannot, while 'du' can it seems.  I
> suppose it's just arbitrary, or obvious, and perhaps 'xu' could
> describe a selbri about x1 x2 x3 being uncertain in relation to each
> other.  But I did want to make sure there wasn't some rule I haven't
> found yet that states all cmavo can be used as selbri, even ones that
> don't fit any undestandable thought pattern.

Yeah, basically different cmavo (or technically different selma'o, the classes
of cmavo) are used differently.  'xu' belongs to the selma'o UI, which can
appear pretty much anywhere, but don't change the grammar of the bridi they're
in (though they may change the meaning).  'du' is in GOhA, which is the ones
that act as selbri (and which Robin listed earlier).  Others do different
things.  There's a lot to learn, but it starts to come pretty easily after a
while.

> You are right though.  ;)  I said "xu zo'e cmavo la xu" when the sumti
> should have been "zo xu" and placed in x1 not x2 of cmavo.  Thus "zo
> xu cmavo" makes good sense.  And to go full circle, this might make
> sense as well to equate 'xu' as a cmavo-thing.
>
> zo xu du le cmavo

That is well formed, but it's probably not what you want.  In general, {du}
isn't very useful in most contexts, and should be avoided if possible.  It says
that two things have the same identity.  So what you're saying is that 'zo xu'
(that is, the word 'xu') has the same identity as 'le cmavo', that is, the
thing or things that I call "the cmavo".  So it could be correct, but it's more
"That thing I've been calling the cmavo?  It's 'xu'."  It doesn't mean "the
word xu is a cmavo", that's still just 'zo xu cmavo'


> Not sure if that also means all cmavo are 'xu' (which is false) but
> having not yet mastered lojban numbers I'm definitely stretching to
> use 'du' as a selbri.

If you wanted to say all cmavo are xu, that *would* be a place where du would
be meaningful.

xu ro cmavo cu du zo xu
.i li'o na go'i

"Are all cmavo 'xu'?"
"Of course not!"

In general, I really wish du didn't even exist.  For the few times it's
actually needed one could use dunli instead, and it tends to just get overused
by newbies when there are better solutions out there.  (No offense meant, by
the way--I'm criticizing the language for confusing you, not you for being
confused).
--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/

Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your 
home.
         -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)