Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash

[白松 Oren <baisong@gvbchina.org.cn>]

Hi again,

Thanks for replying so positively! I was afraid that I was crazy for
writing down this idea... but there's at least one other crazy person
=). I'd love to see/hear/work-of-of other other ideas that have
preceded this conversation; after all I'm relatively new on the
mailing lists myself, I joined this autumn.

However, I can't seem to find a way to contact Jim Dabell from that
archive you linked to, and the link in the archive (to the mock-up
website) appears to be a blank webpage now... I think I found his
profile on Linkedin, Sourceforge, jim.dabell.name and Djangopeople
(via google), but can't seem to find an email! Any ideas? =p

Anyhow, it's bedtime in Beijing, .ui mu'o!

On 2009-12-21, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
> I really support your initiative.  I started off about 3 years ago as a
> Category 2 by your definition.  My background is marketing communications;
> I've never programmed a line of code in my life.
>
> Currently, I'm reading the texts, creating sets of all gismu for Quizlet
> (they are
> not all online yet), and contributing to jbovlaste.
>
> I have to say that I have been motivated by the language itself and by a few
> helpful
> individuals who have shown extraordinary patience with the slowness of my
> progress..
>
> I have also been demotivated by
> (1) A lack of interest among many in the lojban establishment to attract
> non-technical newbies like me. I believe this is the main reason why the
> lojban
> community remains so small after so many years and probably is still below
> 'critical mass'.
> (2) The continued propagation of the myth that the BPFK is finalizing
> cmavo definitions and some points of grammar.  This is preventing, among
> other things,
> the production of the revised CLL and the 'complete' dictionary.
>
> Fresh blood is needed, and it needs to come from many walks of life.  A
> website targetting
> beginners would be a great first step - and I would love to help.
>
> By the way, Jim Dabell started something like this a year ago.  You may want
> to contact
> him  directly. See
> http://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners@lojban.org/msg03798.html
>
>
> totus
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Oren <get.oren@gmail.com>
>> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
>> Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 8:55:49 PM
>> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash
>>
>> I'd like to help build a site for beginners! One that would
>> (1) Have a flexible lojban-lesson framework
>> (2) Have a learner's forum so that beginners know they're not alone
>> (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wiki, ways to help, how to
>> use applications etc.
>>
>> ...the way I see it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance
>> of) two sites would make things more orderly.
>>
>> Category 1: Experienced people. They're likely not fluent in lojban,
>> but they're literate. They may be amateur or professional linguists,
>> programmers or just self-motivated, and so they treat lojban very
>> differently; more like a programming language; i.e. a tool or
>> resource. So it's completely natural that there be an online place to
>> post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for lojban.
>>
>> Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see lojban.org and
>> think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go view one
>> of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lojban like
>> a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the site,
>> and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying too).
>> So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, they
>> see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed in
>> with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time.
>>
>> My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or
>> active on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are
>> self-motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with
>> growing interest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism
>> or globalization or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come
>> more and more often, and they're the people who really need a
>> "website," not a development wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't
>> use mailing lists, irc, or google wave.
>>
>> My impression of how lojban is used online:
>>
>> lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone*
>> jbovlaste -> active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks
>> jbotcan, -> active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks
>> irc, mailing lists, google wave -> active communication, mostly
>> category 1 lojban-geeks*
>>
>> *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population
>>
>> What I think is missing:
>> beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intro to lojban
>> development
>>
>> Or am I way off? I hope that makes sense...
>>
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