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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati

I'm still waiting for someone to come out and say "I was taught that
way, it took about that long, and now I can hold a conversation in
Lojban".

-Robin

On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:52:39PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> So one argument I keep hearing for {cu} first and {ku} later is
> that it's much faster to learn "street lojban" and then learn the
> technicalities of elision and whatnot.  But from what lindar was
> saying, it sounds like "the long/not-street" way of teaching (ku
> then cu) takes about 30-90 minutes. "It gets newbies speaking in
> full sentences faster" seems like a moot point when the
> alternative (and better IMO) way only takes about an hour to
> learn.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > My two cents to all of this:
> > I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the community after
> > going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I first came, but I was
> > close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe up to chapter
> > 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentences together in
> > a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basically, until I felt
> > comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions that I thought I
> > should join the IRC and mailing lists.
> >
> > So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like this in
> > the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I think putting
> > off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, but they were
> > one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other hand, I think
> > that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so using
> > terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is a
> > horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences get
> > horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very very
> > rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful having to
> > do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard
> > circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, that
> > means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were even
> > remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be great to teach
> > it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to construct a
> > relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a discussion
> > of an actual topic.
> >
> > So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When you get
> > to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o}. Around the
> > time when you start needing two terminators (probably around the time that
> > you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster way that is usually
> > used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until you run into
> > three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and then attempt to
> > synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti inside
> > abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do too many
> > things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts with it will
> > learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think; by
> > contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if they are
> > the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be confusion so
> > much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {cu}
> > causing inefficiency).
> >
> > This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it ASAP"
> > hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pretty good
> > here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data.
> >
> > *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix it,
> > sorry.
> >
> > mu'oi mi'e latros.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> >> > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actually know
> >> how
> >> > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo'e zo'e} (I have
> >> actually
> >> > seen stuff like this).
> >> .skamyxatra
> >>
> >> "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct.  (It's
> >> unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your sole
> >> objection
> >> to it, you might want to look in the mirror.)  "{cu}" means "the {bridi}'s
> >> main
> >> {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything before
> >> it,
> >> rather than termination being the primary concept and the main {selbri}
> >> aspect
> >> secondary.  The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{cu}" is
> >> that it
> >> must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "term" can
> >> be a
> >> {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, a
> >> {sumti}
> >> tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA KU.
> >>
> >> mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.
> >>
> >> --
> >> lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki
> >>
> >> --
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> >>
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-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

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