Re: [lojban-beginners] djekarni (Diary): le karni fe la timoteios.

[selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de>]

On 09.08.2016 08:25, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> I will probably use *filta'a* next time:
>
> (1) *.e'o ko dragau mi ki'u le nu mi na filta'a*

Even though this is lojban-beginners, I think it might be good to point 
out that this sentence (and all the previous versions of it) doesn't 
mean what one might expect. {.e'o} (and {ko}) has(have) scope over the 
entire sentence {dragau mi ki'u le nu mi na filta'a}, which includes the 
{ki'u} ("because") clause. Thus, what you request from the listener by 
saying this sentence is that they [correct you because you don't speak 
fluently], rather than that the reason why you make the request is that 
you don't speak fluently (which is the intended meaning, but not the 
meaning of the Lojban).

One way to fix this is:

   (2) .e'o ko dragau mi .i ki'u bo mi na filta'a
       "Please correct me. This is because I don't speak fluently."

{.e'o} is short for {ca'e mi cpedu}, so the {.i ki'u bo} "because" 
actually invisibly attaches to {cpedu} rather than {dragau}. Therefore, 
the underlying meaning of (2) is (3):

   (3) ca'e mi cpedu fi do fe lo ka dragau mi .i ki'u bo mi na filta'a
      "I hereby request that you correct me. This is because I don't 
speak fluently."

While English "Please correct me because I don't speak fluently" is 
ambiguous, Lojban reveals this ambiguity and forces one to choose one of 
the possible readings, which is then reflected in the syntax. So even 
though this particular example might be a bit complicated for 
lojban-beginners, I think it's a good general lesson to take away from this.

~~~mi'e la selpa'i

p.s. I think the title of this thread is incorrect. {le karni fe la 
.timoteios.} is just two disjointed sumti. I assume you wanted {la 
.timoteios.} to fill one of the place of {karni}, but this requires 
{be}: {le karni be [fe] la .timoteios.} (the {fe} is redundant here). 
See for example 
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons/Single_page#Lesson_16:_Lojban_sumti_3.CB.90_derived_sumti 
and https://lojban.github.io/cll/5/7/

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