Re: [lojban] Re: Baseline statement

[Nick Nicholas <opoudjis@optushome.com.au>]

On Friday, Dec 6, 2002, at 23:07 Australia/Melbourne, John Cowan wrote:

> Nick Nicholas scripsit:
>
>> Besides, now that I've read the blasted thing, John had anticipated
>> this anyway:
>>
>> Lojban sruti'o = Loglan sruti,o
>> Lojban srutio = Loglan srutio
>>
>> The comma is a phoneme in Loglan transliteration, which does much of
>> the work of the Lojban apostrophe. Therefore, sruti'o and srutio are
>> distinct in Lojban, and this is not annulled in the Loglan
>> transliteration, which also renders them distinctly. Therefore the
>> difference between the two remains legit.
>
> Alas, no, he's right and you and I are wrong.
>
> The mapping in lujvo is Std "i'o" = Alt "io", since Std "io" can't  
> occur
> in lujvo.  The mapping in fu'ivla is Std "i'o" = Alt "i,o" and Std  
> "io" =
> Alt "io".
>
> So Std "sruti'o" (being a lujvo) maps to Alt "srutio", and "Std"  
> "srutio"
> (being a fu'ivla) maps to Alt "srutio".  Bzzzzt.

Oh buggery.

OK, a couple of things:

* Raymond's Tengwar doesn't have commas or dots. Therefore, if the CLL  
Loglan orthography means that the sruti'o/srutio distinction in Loglan  
is illegal, then the Raymond Tengwar means that a distinction between  
lis.te and liste is illegal. And remember, CLL does  not say the Loglan  
transliteration is inherently less 'oddball' than the Tengwar.

* The Loglan transliteration clearly isn't quite a full representation  
of the same phonology in different orthography, but a near enough.

* In Loglan terms, srutio is always pronounced as [srutjO] (with a  
mid-open vowel, whereas normal o is mid-close!) If the rapproachment  
were to take place, this would mean that Loglanists would have a  
distinct accent which neutralises the distinction between io and i'o  
outside of non-Lojban words and attitudinals --- but neutralises it in  
the direction of [jO] ("yaw"), not [iho]. So if this were ever to have  
happened seriously, and Loglanists pronounced the forms like Loglan,  
not just read them like Loglan, then it *would* have represented a  
change in Lojban phonology.

* I don't know how this can be patched, and if I didn't think this  
whole thing was pointless, I'd rather discard the whole thing in an  
erratum and just say that i'V and u'V *always* map to i,V and u,V,  
whatever the morphology of the word. So the loglanists who never came  
to dinner have a few more commas to deal with. They're getting them in  
a'i = a,i anyway. So if they have to write:

vlatai  = vlatai
vlata'i = vlata,i

I see no good reason why they shouldn't also write

srutio  = srutio
sruti'o = sruti,o

* The notion that Loglan transliteration constrains Lojban phonotactics  
remains perverse. I want the "Get A Grip" reading to apply to all of  
2.12. If not, then I would support an erratum adding at the end that  
"where any of these orthographies fail to make distinctions made in the  
conventional Roman orthography of Lojban, the latter is regarded as  
binding for the phonotactics of Lojban."

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