On Vendredi, déce 6, 2002, at 11:28 US/Eastern, Nick Nicholas wrote:
On Friday, Dec 6, 2002, at 23:07 Australia/Melbourne, John Cowan wrote:Nick Nicholas scripsit:Besides, now that I've read the blasted thing, John had anticipated this anyway: Lojban sruti'o = Loglan sruti,o Lojban srutio = Loglan srutio The comma is a phoneme in Loglan transliteration, which does much of the work of the Lojban apostrophe. Therefore, sruti'o and srutio are distinct in Lojban, and this is not annulled in the Loglan transliteration, which also renders them distinctly. Therefore the difference between the two remains legit.Alas, no, he's right and you and I are wrong. The mapping in lujvo is Std "i'o" = Alt "io", since Std "io" can't occur in lujvo. The mapping in fu'ivla is Std "i'o" = Alt "i,o" and Std "io" = Alt "io". So Std "sruti'o" (being a lujvo) maps to Alt "srutio", and "Std" "srutio" (being a fu'ivla) maps to Alt "srutio". Bzzzzt.Oh buggery. OK, a couple of things: * Raymond's Tengwar doesn't have commas or dots. Therefore, if the CLL Loglan orthography means that the sruti'o/srutio distinction in Loglan is illegal, then the Raymond Tengwar means that a distinction between lis.te and liste is illegal. And remember, CLL does not say the Loglan transliteration is inherently less 'oddball' than the Tengwar. * The Loglan transliteration clearly isn't quite a full representation of the same phonology in different orthography, but a near enough. * In Loglan terms, srutio is always pronounced as [srutjO] (with a mid-open vowel, whereas normal o is mid-close!) If the rapproachment were to take place, this would mean that Loglanists would have a distinct accent which neutralises the distinction between io and i'o outside of non-Lojban words and attitudinals --- but neutralises it in the direction of [jO] ("yaw"), not [iho]. So if this were ever to have happened seriously, and Loglanists pronounced the forms like Loglan, not just read them like Loglan, then it *would* have represented a change in Lojban phonology.
Since Loglan does not make a phonemic distinction between monosyllabic and disyllabic pronunciation of diphthongs, srutio could be pronounced SRU-tjo, or sru-TI-o, (which would mean something like severely-injured) and both would be considered equivalent. Judging from comments I have heard, the bisyllabic pronunciation would be favoured by many, but there has been practically no Loglan oral conversation since pre-Lojban days.
* I don't know how this can be patched, and if I didn't think this
whole thing was pointless, I'd rather discard the whole thing in an
erratum and just say that i'V and u'V *always* map to i,V and u,V,
whatever the morphology of the word. So the loglanists who never came
to dinner have a few more commas to deal with. They're getting them in
a'i = a,i anyway. So if they have to write:
vlatai = vlatai
vlata'i = vlata,i
I see no good reason why they shouldn't also write
srutio = srutio
sruti'o = sruti,o
* The notion that Loglan transliteration constrains Lojban phonotactics
remains perverse. I want the "Get A Grip" reading to apply to all of
2.12. If not, then I would support an erratum adding at the end that
"where any of these orthographies fail to make distinctions made in the
conventional Roman orthography of Lojban, the latter is regarded as
binding for the phonotactics of Lojban."
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\||||nickn@unimelb.edu.au|||||Transient Passenger|||||Nick
Nicholas||||||
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