Re: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all}

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

--- Maxim Katcharov <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com>
wrote:


> 
> On 5/18/06, Jorge Llambías
> <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> > > > > {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti}
> > > > > Five bears, out of all hypothetical
> future bears, will exist in the future.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that's "out of all bears, exactly
> five will exist (at some
> > > > unspecified time
> > > > in the future)".
> > >
> > > "[out of] all bears" amounts to my "[out
> of] the set of all
> > > hypothetical/possible permutations of
> bears". Does this clarify how
> > > I'm using this
> 'hypothetical-all-permutiation set'? Or do you
> disagree
> > > with this?
> > >
> > > If you disagree, then how are you using
> "[out of] all bears" in that
> > > above sentance?
> >
> > I was using it in my sense, i.e. "out of all
> things that count as bears".
> 
> What counts as bears? Bears that will actually
> exist in the future?
> Surely not, consider:
> 
> {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti}
> 
> "five of all-bears-such-that(-will)-exist will
> exist"? That wouldn't
> say anything at all. You need a hypothetical
> mega-set so that it
> becomes comprehensible: "five of
> all-hypothetical-future-bears will
> exist".
> 
> > > You don't mean "(out of) the set of all
> bears that
> > > will exist", because that wouldn't work.
> >
> > No. But notice all the different things it
> could still mean:
> >
> >     ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti
> >     From here to eternity, exactly five bears
> will be such that each at least
> >     at one time exists.
> >
> >     ze'e ba ku mu cribe ro roi ku zasti
> >     From here to eternity, exactly five bears
> will be such that each at every
> >     time exists.
> >
> >     ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe  zasti
> >     From here to eternity, there will be at
> least one time when exactly five
> >     bears exist.
> >
> >     ze'e ba ku ro roi ku mu cribe  zasti
> >     From here to eternity, every time time
> will be such that exactly five
> >     bears will exist at that time.
> >
> > All say different things. And that's just
> with {ro roi} and {su'o roi}.
> 
> I don't see what this says regarding the
> impossibility of using this mega-set.
> 
> To me 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 look identical in terms
> of final meaning:
> 
> {ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti}
> 
> "in-all-of future, 5 of some set of bears, will
> at some points exist"
> 
> {ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe cu zasti}
> 
> "in-all-of future will at some points exist 5
> of some set of bears"

Not the same at all.  One says that for each of
five bears there will be a time that it exists;
the other says that there is a time when all five
of these bears exist together.