Re: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all}

["Maxim Katcharov" <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com>]

On 6/8/06, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/8/06, Maxim Katcharov <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 6/8/06, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The building is surrounded by students and professors together. Then:
> > >
> > >    loi tadni cu sruri le dinju
> > >    Students surround the building.
> > >
> > > is false.
> >
> > No, true.
>
> Are you sure? Is "Alice surrounds the building" true? Is "Alice and Betty
> surround the building" true? Suppose Alice and Betty are the only students
> in the group, and the rest of the people surrounding the building are
> professors,
> is "Students surround the building" true?

Yes, it becomes much more apparent (to me, at least) once written out
in Lojban. It's not {la alis cu sruri lo dinju}, it's {lu'o la alis cu
sruri dinju}. As in other aspects of Lojban, saying one thing does not
preclude another. Usually, the speaker would say "Alice and the
professors surrounded" in the first place, so this wouldn't be so
strange. However, if asked "did Alice surround?", or better put "was
Alice a surround-mate?" (which is a more exact, though unorthodox
translation), one would say yes. The strict

"Alice and Betty surround the building" would be
{[la ales e la betis] sruri lo dinju}

which, yes, in this case is false.

> > > {gunma} does mean "consists of". But even if you think {gunma} means
> > > something else, the predicate that you need to make your expansion
> > > of {loi} is one that means "x1 consists of x2", not one that means
> > > "x1 has component x2"
> >
> > Ah. No, I don't need it to make my expansion.
>
> I think you do.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.