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Re: [lojban] ZOI and culture neutrality

On 7/7/06, Hugh O'Byrne <hobyrne@gmail.com> wrote:

Background:

Lojban has a structure, the ZOI selma'o (CLL page 477).  Within written
Lojban, it provides a means of using an alternate orthography.  This is
advantageous, in that people who are familiar with alternate
orthographies are free to use them if they wish.  Within spoken Lojban,
ZOI provides a means of distinguishing two words which not homophones,
in their native language, but that when mapped onto the Lojban phonemes,
would effectively become homophones.  This is advantageous in that
needless ambiguity is not enforced upon expressing foreign words in Lojban.

Observation:

Orthographies and phonemes are tied to culture.  Lojban is intended to
be culture-neutral (CLL page 3).  Subtle loopholes arise.

In writing a Lojban text, a Lojbanist familiar with an alternate
orthography can choose to use it to make his job easier (e.g. by using
the text "la'o dy. Goethe .dy.").  In some cases, e.g. if he wishes to
use a particular foreign word that either uses a sound not native to
Lojban, or would be needlessly ambiguated as described above, the writer
*must* use ZOI.

Loophole one:  Ideally, the writer (if he has taken enough care) should
be able to give his text to *any* other Lojbanist, even one with *no*
cultural (specifically, orthographic) knowledge outside of Lojban
itself, and that second Lojbanist should be able to read aloud the text
flawlessly.  This is not the case with the current system.


I disagree. I believe it is the case with the current system. Your
email is predicated on the idea that zoi and {la'o] transform the word
"Goethe" into a Lojban word, and therefore there is a Lojban word that
not everyone knows how to pronounce. That is not the case. "Goethe" is
not Lojban, even when it is included in the correct Lojban text "la'o
.dy. Goethe .dy." Such functions are inserting non-Lojban into Lojban.
Lojban speakers should always have the freedom to insert non-Lojban.

Lojban is a language that makes a lot of sense, and yet it allows you
to speak complete nonsense as much as you wish. It is an unambigious
language which allows you to speak as ambiguously as you wish. It is
also a consistent language that allows you to insert inconsistencies
in the way that you have just pointed out. These freedoms are
features, not bugs.

The freedom to insert various cultures into a culturally-neutral
language is identical to the way that religious neutrality allows us
the freedom to practice any religion we wish, by not mandating any one
of them. Multicultural racial neutrality in our society allows a
variety of cultures and ethnicities, by not mandating any one of them.
Lojban has words that open and close a string of text which would,
without those bracket words, be "rule-breaking" text. Lojban does not
force you to use those words. The measures you propose would mandate
one all-consuming, monolithic, heterogenous Lojban culture to replace
all other cultures.

-epkat