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Re: [lojban] Re: ZOI and culture neutrality

Matt Arnold wrote:

On 7/7/06, Hugh O'Byrne <hobyrne@gmail.com> wrote:


Loophole one:  ...


I disagree. I believe it is the case with the current system. Your
email is predicated on the idea that zoi and {la'o] transform the word
"Goethe" into a Lojban word,
No, ZOI transforms the word "Goethe", its spelling and pronounciation and relationship between the two, into valid Lojban (when used with helper words), which otherwise it would not be. 


and therefore there is a Lojban word that
not everyone knows how to pronounce.
There are, within valid Lojban, phrases that not everyone knows how to pronounce. 


That is not the case. "Goethe" is
not Lojban, even when it is included in the correct Lojban text "la'o
.dy. Goethe .dy."
But "la'o .dy. Goethe .dy." is valid Lojban, even where "Goethe" by itself is not. 


Such functions are inserting non-Lojban into Lojban.
Lojban speakers should always have the freedom to insert non-Lojban.


Uncontested.
Point of opinion: Lojban writers should always have the freedom to insert non-Lojban in such a way as that it is always pronouncable to someone who knows all of Lojban, but none of any other language. One solution is to make all foreign spelling 'a part' of Lojban, another is to make *one* standardized phonetic alphabet 'a part' of Lojban, if even just a recommendation and not a requirement. (A similar point goes for transcribing spoken Lojban.) 


Lojban is a language that makes a lot of sense, and yet it allows you
to speak complete nonsense as much as you wish. It is an unambigious
language which allows you to speak as ambiguously as you wish. It is
also a consistent language that allows you to insert inconsistencies
in the way that you have just pointed out. These freedoms are
features, not bugs.
I do not intend taking any freedoms away from Lojban. I intend adding one recommendation so that the expectations I describe may be accomodated by those who wish to use them. It would be yet another feature, not a bug. 


The freedom to insert various cultures into a culturally-neutral
language is identical to the way that religious neutrality allows us
the freedom to practice any religion we wish, by not mandating any one
of them. Multicultural racial neutrality in our society allows a
variety of cultures and ethnicities, by not mandating any one of them.
Lojban has words that open and close a string of text which would,
without those bracket words, be "rule-breaking" text. Lojban does not
force you to use those words. The measures you propose would mandate
one all-consuming, monolithic, heterogenous Lojban culture to replace
all other cultures.


I never said 'mandate' or 'replace', those are your words.
Okay. Perhaps a clearer expression of how I envision this working is in order. I do not propose making the text "la'o .dy. Goethe .dy." into *invalid* Lojban. A person who wishes to write "la'o .dy. Goethe .dy.", and wishes people unfamiliar with the name to be able to read his text aloud, has the option currently of using a phonetic alphabet. This is sufficient. But, a 'standard' phonetic alphabet for Lojban would let both the writer, and the reader, know more precisely what is expected of them (not that they need to know *every* phonetic alphabet, but just this *one*).
This would have the effect that "la'o .dy. (phonetic spelling of Goethe) .dy." would be *preferable* Lojban, over "la'o .dy. Goethe .dy.", for people who are nit-pickers about such things. But the freedom to use "la'o .dy. Goethe .dy." unmodified would remain, and be sufficient for probably most uses.
In other words, my proposal would not even fix what I said earlier: "There are, within valid Lojban, phrases that not everyone knows how to pronounce". That would continue to be the case. But, it would provide common ground for people who delve into such depths of Lojban expression, so that it would be *possible* that all written phrases were pronouncable without knowing German, and all spoken Lojban could be transcribed without knowing German.
To carry the 'religion' metaphor; while there are many religions, there is advantage to having one field of religious study, with one vocabulary, for describing all the features of all the different religions that exist. This is not at all the same thing as enforcing any religion on anyone. Nothing is consumed, and new avenues of expression and analysis are facilitated. 

--
Good night, and have a rational tomorrow!

mi'e .xius.