Re: pamoi xatra

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@intermedia.com.ar>]

la evgenis cusku di'e

>That is why I asked for an example where both x2  and x3
>of {cilre} are not empty. When I am trying to invent one, it always turns
out
>that if x2 is occupied, x3 is redundant, and vice versa.

Yes, I noticed the same thing. And not only {cilre}, the same thing
happens with djuno, krici, jinvi, sruma, facki, jimpe, smadi, and
some others which have the structure "that x2 is true about x3".
If you put something in x2 it is usually redundant to put something
in x3. I suppose there might be a difference, for example, between:

        mi facki le du'u la djan bruna la pol kei la djan
        I found out that John is the brother of Paul about John.

        mi facki le du'u la djan bruna la pol kei la pol
        I found out that John is the brother of Paul about Paul.

but the difference is so subtle that I'm not sure it's worth the
trouble making it.

But there are examples where you might want to fill both places,
things like:

        mi cilre roda la lojban
        I learn everything about Lojban.

        mi facki so'ida la djan
        I discovered a lot of things about John.

        la karlos djuno noda la lojban
        Carlos knows nothing about Lojban.

        la mari,as cilre lei vajrai la lojban
        Maria learned the most important things about Lojban.

It's when you put an explicit {du'u} that the x3 becomes
redundant.

Of course, if there was no x3 place, all of the above could
simply be said with {roda pe la lojban}, {so'ida pe la djan},
{noda pe la lojban}, {lei vajrai pe la lojban}.

>Hence the question: does {cilre} imply presenting information in a
systematic
>way?

I suppose that the difference between {cilre} and {facki} is
that {cilre} requires some effort on the part of the x1 and {facki}
doesn't. I'm not sure there has to be anything systematic
about it. I don't think I would say:

            mi cilre le du'u makau fonjudri la aleks
            I learned what Alex's phone number is.

unless I had to make an effort, say if I learnt it by heart.
Although maybe the only difference is in the x4 and x5
places of {cilre}, from source and by method. I don't know.

For learning in the sense of "becoming skilled at", I would
use {crebi'o} = "x1 becomes skilled at x2", so:

            mi crebi'o le nu tavla bau la lojban
            I am learning to speak in Lojban.

            mi crebi'o le nu jitro le relselxi'u
            I learn to ride a bicycle.

co'o mi'e xorxes