Re: pamoi xatra

[Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@lojban.org>]

At 11:41 AM 5/4/99 +0000, you wrote:
>From: sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru
>(A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban 
>from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.
>
>(B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'
>
>(C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban' 
>
>Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}?

I tend to think so, but not necessarily in the same way as English.  A
differs from B and C in that it uses the x2 of cilre, whereas skills and
subject knowledge are things "learned about".  But B is really more of a
certu binxo, or possible certu cilre.

>In Russian these are 3 strictly not interchangeable verbs:
>(A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')

Based on my weak Russian, I would more often associate this with facki, but
would also use it with non-agentive x4/x5 of cilre

>(B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic). 
>However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather 
>a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
>erased).

I understand the Russian as an intentional learning whereas A might be used
for something you learn unintentionally.  But for the post part I think
this is the one closest to cilre.

>(C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)

Definitely "tadni" - study does not necessarily imply successful learning.

>May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar
phrases? 

Ivan Derzanski is almost certainly a better respondent than I in
associating Russian words with Lojban.  But perhaps Gary Burgess will
emerge from silence and speak up here if Ivan does not (Gary has worked as
a Russian translator, and is a silent cofounder of Lojban because he has
not had time to study it).

>Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
>places in {cilre}?

"cilre" parallels "djuno" in that the x2 are specific facts that one comes
to know about a topic or subject x3.  cilre is closely affiliated with
"djuno binxo" because of the place structure match.

>>I'd say
>> 
>> se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
>> [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> mi pavysei jbotadni
>> I alone-type Lojbanic-study
>
>Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear 
>'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
>superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
>usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
>a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
>a practical skill.

I think these would be distinguished in Lojban using lujvo.  cilre is not
intended to necessarily have an intentionality/effort associated with it or
a degree of superficiality.  To "cilre pa da" is rather superficial about a
complex subject, while "cilre so'i da" usually takes le nu tadni.

>Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn". English
>"to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
>one uses other verbs e.g. 

I think I would use ctuca with all three Russian words - any form of
*agentive* imparting of facts or skills whether or not the person being
taught actually learns.

>Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
>style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?

I would use ctuca if indeed I wanted to cilre the number.  If I just wanted
to use and probably forget, then I would be inclined to use dunda, except
that this seems clearly wrong in the same way that we don't "borrow"
fu'ivla.  We don't "dunda" information because there is no transfer.  I'll
have to think mor eonm this one.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@lojban.org
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