Re: Turkey (Re: cecla fanta flalu)

["Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@lojban.org>]

At 06:04 PM 9/30/99 -0700, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote:
> > > Still, even Turks are used to seeing "Turkey" (or "Turk*") in just
> > > about every other Latin-alphabet orthography.  That can't be a
> > > coincidence; /y/ is close to /i/ in other languages as well.
> >
> > No, it's not a coincidence; they all copied the spelling and not the
> > pronunciation. It's up to Lojban to set the world straight zo'o.
>
>What spelling did `they all' copy?  The Roman form _Türkiye_, which
>didn't exist until 1921?  The Ottoman <turkIyeH>, which uses the same
>diacritic for _u_ and _ü_?  The spelling in Turkic runes, where the
>letter _ü_ has nothing in common with either _i_ or _u_?
>
>(Btw, in Bulgarian and Russian, where Turkish _ü_ is usually rendered
>as _ju_, Turkey is called _Turcija_, and a distinction is made between
>_tur(k)-_ `Turkish' and the more recent _tjurk-_ `Turkic'.)
>
>The point is that the form /turk/ as an alternative of /tyrk/ (IPA)
>in those languages where /y/ is not a separate phoneme is a good deal
>older than any spelling that `they all' could have copied.  It may
>have to do with the fact that in Arabic (and Semitic in general)
>/u/ does have front(ed) allophones, while /i/ has no rounded ones.
>In any case, it is a result of the objective conditions of the
>relevant linguistic environment.  Should Lojban's arbitrary
>conventions take precedence over that?

Which arbitrary conventions are these?  The determining factor should be 
what the people want themselves to be called.  There is precedent for 
Lojban emulating either the pronunciation and the common spelling with 
people going different ways on the matter.  Robin can ask his native wife 
and perhaps some others whether they would prefer to be called la turk or 
la tirk or la trk (adding a lojbanization of one of the endings as 
appropriate - I gather that up through the k is the essential root)

lojbab



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