[lojban] Re: Re[2]: tanru

["Ben Goertzel" <ben@goertzel.org>]

Alexsej,

> BG> So according to my limited knowledge, a nice, clear phrasing would be
> BG> ti [cu] ckule fi le cmalu nanla
> BG> But your phrasing in terms of a tanru is also correct, though
> more ambiguous
>
> It is actually from "la lojban. mo", and though it is mentioned to be
> a little ambiguous, such structure seems to be used very often.
>
> BG> as the tanru "cmalu nanla ckule" has a lot of possible interpretations
>
> There is said it does not.

What is says there is that the default implied grouping is

(cmalu nanla) ckule

This is fine, and it says that what we have is a school, modified by "small
boy(s)".

The parenthetical grouping structure is not ambiguous

However, the tanru still doesn't specify whether the boys attend the school,
operate the school, or their anatomy is the subject of instruction at the
school...  This part of the tanru's interpretation is left open for "common
sense" interpretation, unlike in the rephrasing I gave.

My own taste is to use argument-structure rather than tanru wherever
possible, so as to minimize ambiguity.

> BG> On the other hand, to say
> BG> This-thing is-small in-dimension-"boy" as-compared-with-standard
> BG> "school"
> BG> you could say
> BG> ti cmalu le nanla le ckule
> BG> Here, the English-article-like cmavo "le" marks nanla and
> ckule as sumti
> BG> rather than components of a tanru
>
> But what if there are some dimensions "boy" and some standards
> "school", and I don't know at all which of them are the ones I mean?
> If I use "le", won't people ask me about them?

Well, "le" is a bit like "the" in English.  The referent is left open for
the listener to interpret based on context.  Lojban doesn't eliminate the
need for pragmatics in language interpretation.

If you want to specify things more then you use "poi" and associated cmavo.

To use a less nonsensical example, here is how I would (perhaps incorrectly,
but hey ;-) try to say

"this is small in dimension weight as compared to an elephant that eats a
lot":

ti cmalu le junta le xanto poi mutce le ka citka

i.e. in predicatized form

small( this, weight, elephant : much(elephant, eating) )

cmalu=small
weight= junta
xanto = elephant
eat = citka
ka = process_of
: = such that, as in mathematics...

(syntax/semantics of "such that" operator poi obtained from p.97 of
Beginners...)

I.e., I'm saying

"This is small in weight, compared to an elephant that displays muchness
relative to the property of eating"

I'm not sure about the "mutce le ka citka" part, actually ... but this is my
best guess based on my beginners' knowledge & understanding...

> Hmm, I wonder why they chose the example at all.
> I've started to read "Beginner's Guide ...", and made it to somewhere
> after numbers, but was confused about long structures with "le??" etc.
>
> What is the most easy?

I found the Beginner's Guide extremely simple and well-written overall, but
I thought the section on quantifiers (lei, loi, etc.) was indeed the most
difficult to follow.  I suggest you pass over that section and read the rest
of the book.  Then when you read that section again, it will make a lot more
sense to you than it did the first time around.  At least, that was my own
experience last week when I read the book ;-)

-- Ben




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