[lojban] Re: "zo'e" = ("unimportant","obvious" and ?"unknown")

[John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

--- opi_lauma <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I tried to classify cases when one does not use
> concrete sumti, and
> replace it (in some cases) by "zo'e". 
> 
> Let us consider the following statements
> (cases). Situation will be
> classified by saying which statement is true
> and which is false.
> 
> A : speaker know what is sumti.
> B : speaker want to know what is sumti.
> C : speaker think that listener know what is
> sumti.
> D : speaker think that listener wants to know
> what is sumti.
> E : speaker want that listener know what is
> sumti.
> 
> Not all combinations are possible. I understand
> "want to know" as
> "want to get information" about what is sumti.
> It means that "if
> C=true then D=false". 
> 
> According to the grammar zo'e (need to/can ?)
> be used if sumti is
> obvious or not important.

The first thing to notice is that {zo'e} is
(often) an alternative to just leaving the place
blank, so {zo'e} is at best "can be used." 
Secondly, {zo'e} is also an alternative to {su'o
da}, but with a different (not totally clear)
rhetorical force.  I tend to think the {zo'e},
like the blank, discourages the question "Which
one?,"  which {su'o da} implicitly raises (even
though it does not require that the speaker have
an answer).  As for the situations you list, B is
not appropriate because it is only the speaker
who picks the form used.  I take A to be neutral
in the sense that the speaker may use {zo'e} or
blank -- or {su'o da} for that matter -- whether
he knows the fill or not, if it is a "doesn't
matter" case. Your list also leaves out (or does
not distinguish) the "doesn't matter" cases --
which may be more common than the "obvious" ones
-- in which the speaker may  use one of these
fillers even if he thinks the listener wants to
know what goes in there and he knows the answer
(A & D true). Clearly, so long as A is true, the
speaker will not use fillers when E and D are
true (if he is being cooperative -- he may, of
course have reasons for withholding the
information, "need to know" for example).  

> 1.If we say that "sumti is obvious" it means
> that speaker know what is
> sumti (A = true) and listener also know that (C
> = true).
> 2.If we say that "sumti is not important" ,I
> think, we need to mean
> that "it is not important to say" (in the given
> contest) what is
> sumti. This case should contain first case as a
> partial case, isn't?
> Really, if sumti is obvious it is not important
> to say what is sumti.
> The second reason, why it can be not important
> to say what is sumti is
> that listener does not need this information,
> while this information
> is not interesting and/or not necessary for him
> (D = false). 
> 
> In English one use in this case passive
> construction:
> For example: "Our car has been bought."
> We say like this if: 
> 
> 1. It is obvious who bought our car, because we
> knew, for example,
> that it should be bought by some person,
> listener just did not know
> whether it is already bought or not (A = true,
> C = true).
> 2. The second reason is that speaker thing that
> listener does not want
> (does not need) to know who bought our car, for
> him it is only
> important whether car was bought or not (D =
> false).
> 
> It means that one need to use "zo'e" if:
> (C = true) or ((C = false) and (D = false))
>   
> What is not clear for me is by what speaker
> need to replace sumti if
> it is unknown by speaker and listener want to
> know what is sumti. For
> example if I say:
> 
> Somebody bought our car.
> 
> I means that I do not know who did it.
> 
 Now we get into pragmatics along a Gricean line.
If I do not say who did something and it is
significant to say who did it if I know, then it
must be (if I am being cooperative, etc.) I do
not have the information.  It does not much
matter how I avoid saying this, although using
"something" or the like does suggest (weakly, I
think, in this context) that questions will get
more information even if not identification.  So,
either blank or {zo'e} is appropriate when A is
false and D is true -- and it is not unimportant.