[lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}?

[John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

--- Opi Lauma <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> I am not native English speaker. Can you pleas
> explain
> me what does it mean "to be talked to by". Is
> it
> passive from "to talk" (not only grammatically
> but
> also by meaning). I mean is {X1 talks to X2}
> equivalent to {X2 is talked to by X1} by
> meaning.

Always excepting differences in rhetoric, they
mean the same.  As for the rhetoric, "is talked
to" has the potential colloquial meaning of "is
criticized or reprimanded" which is no part of
{tavla} and is also less likely with the
non-passive form (we tend to say "gives a talking
to" for the reprimand sense).

> Does
> {X1 talks to X2} mean that {X2 is "hearing" and
> "understanding/trying to understand" X1}? Does
> {X2 is
> talked to by X1} means the same, i.e. {X2 is
> "hearing"
> and "understanding/trying to understand" X1}.

No; "talk to" in English does not require that
the recipient understand or heed what is said.  I
can talk to my cat or a stone.  Now, if I talk
*with*  someone about something, the suggestions
is much stronger that that someone hears,
understands, and even replies in kind.  {tavla}
seems to be somewhere in between -- it does
appear to have to at least suggest that the
hearer understands (and, indeed, hears) but does
not suggest that they respond.  All this is
rather loosely impied, however, and I think I can
tavla my dog or a stone without feeling too
uncomfortable saying so. The important thing
about {tavla} seems to be that it has a topic
("about") but no actual message, as opposed to
{cusku} which has a message but only indirectly a topic.