[lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}?

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 2005 8:31 AM, opi_lauma
> <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I have new question. Is it true that {X1
> selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri
> > X1}? 
> 
> As long as X1 and X2 don't include any
> operators with scope
> (such as quantifiers, logical connectives,
> negation) then yes.
> If there is scope involved, their order
> matters.
> 
> >For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.}
> equivalent to {la meris.
> > se tavla la tam.} ?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > The reason of my doubt is following. I found
> that {la tam. tavla la
> > meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to
> Mary", and {la meris. se
> > tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary
> listens to Tom."
> 
> Maybe "could" rather than "should". "Listen"
> could also be 
> {tirna} or {jundi}. 
> 
> But it
> > seams to me that these two English
> translations have different
> > meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does
> not necessarily mean that
> > Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that
> corresponding initial lojban
> > sentences also have different meaning, or may
> be English translations
> > just not fully represent initial meaning of
> lojban sentences?
> 
> The latter. Translations are always a
> compromise. Probably
> "is talked to by" would in general be a more
> exact translation 
> than "listens" for {se tavla}.
> 
Or maybe, to catch some of the rhetorical force
"It is Mary John talked to"