[lojban] Re: bicycle noralujv quest

[Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>]

John E Clifford wrote:
>>Cool, thanks.
>>I reminds me a conversation I have had with
>>xorxes a while ago about 
>>the translation of "bicycle".
>>There's no gismu for "bicycle" (although there
>>is one for car, truck, 
>>train, etc), and the lujvo proposed in noralujv
>>is complicated. So it 
>>looks like lojban is culturally biased towards
>>motor vehicles against 
>>human self energy propelled vehicles...

No it isn't.  You've missed carce, which need not be a motor vehicle, 
"truck" is NOT a distinct gismu but is part of karce which I think is 
the only word for a strictly motor-propelled vehicle, and you've 
erroneously presumed that a trene is a motor vehicle, when it has a 
place for propulsion method.

> Basically, there isn't one, the gismu list having
> been held more sacrosanct than most things in
> Lojban.  However, if you really feel the need and
> think you can convince others (I doubt this),
> then find the word for "bicycle" in the base
> languages and set about creating a gismu-form
> mush from them ..

I'm hoping that if any new gismu get added, that they will NOT be 
devised as part of the proposal, but created separately once it is 
agreed that one is needed - this was the practice in the past (though we 
then voted again on the actual word being added, at Logfest).  The 
procedure for making them should be checked by multiple people, the 
scoring algorithm needs to be consistent (and I'm sure most people don't 
know the details on what counts and what doesn't), and the word chosen 
has to consider possible rafsi rules as well as scoring.

> If you find (as I think you
> will), that the word in most languages is the
> local variant on "bicycle," then you could make
> up a fuhivla- form version of that word -- which
> would be quicker than trying to get a fully
> official gismu.

Yes.

But I already see some sloppiness in thinking.  Is the vehicle in 
question specifically a traditional bicycle - with two wheels and a 
single seat.  Are we trying to include tricycles, bicycles built for two 
or more, bicycles with a sidecar for a child passenger, all variations 
that might or might not be included depending on the concept used and 
the languages borrowed from.

If the point is that it is just a self-propelled wheeled vehicle (which 
would include scooters and even roller skates), then sezycarce is 
appropriate (self fills both the x2 and x3 of carce).  If you want 
something else, you need to come up with the definition of precisely 
what the concept does and does not include - and the more specific and 
English like the definition, the more likely the word will be verbose.

Of course the real answer is that there should NOT be "a word for 
bicycle".  There should be multiple words which overlappingly cover the 
semantic space covered by the English word "bicycle".  The recognition 
of a noralujv word having a valid meaning of "bicycle" doesn't preclude 
there being two or three other valid words that also mean "bicycle" but 
which convey different aspects of the concept, and overlap other 
semantic arenas differently from the noralujv word.

A certain wise now-retired logic professor once said "Let a thousand 
flowers bloom" when addressing this specific topic %^)

lojbab



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