[lojban] Re: bicycle noralujv quest

[John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

--- Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> 
> John E Clifford wrote:
> >>Cool, thanks.
> >>I reminds me a conversation I have had with
> >>xorxes a while ago about 
> >>the translation of "bicycle".
> >>There's no gismu for "bicycle" (although
> there
> >>is one for car, truck, 
> >>train, etc), and the lujvo proposed in
> noralujv
> >>is complicated. So it 
> >>looks like lojban is culturally biased
> towards
> >>motor vehicles against 
> >>human self energy propelled vehicles...
> 
> No it isn't.  You've missed carce, which need
> not be a motor vehicle, 
> "truck" is NOT a distinct gismu but is part of
> karce which I think is 
> the only word for a strictly motor-propelled
> vehicle, and you've 
> erroneously presumed that a trene is a motor
> vehicle, when it has a 
> place for propulsion method.

And {marce}, the gismu actually used in the two
lujvo listed for "bicycle" (one stressing
two-wheeledness, one human power) in my old lujvo
list (not sure hwo related to current versions).
 
> > Basically, there isn't one, the gismu list
> having
> > been held more sacrosanct than most things in
> > Lojban.  However, if you really feel the need
> and
> > think you can convince others (I doubt this),
> > then find the word for "bicycle" in the base
> > languages and set about creating a gismu-form
> > mush from them ..
> 
> I'm hoping that if any new gismu get added,
> that they will NOT be 
> devised as part of the proposal, but created
> separately once it is 
> agreed that one is needed - this was the
> practice in the past (though we 
> then voted again on the actual word being
> added, at Logfest).  The 
> procedure for making them should be checked by
> multiple people, the 
> scoring algorithm needs to be consistent (and
> I'm sure most people don't 
> know the details on what counts and what
> doesn't), and the word chosen 
> has to consider possible rafsi rules as well as
> scoring.
> 
> > If you find (as I think you
> > will), that the word in most languages is the
> > local variant on "bicycle," then you could
> make
> > up a fuhivla- form version of that word --
> which
> > would be quicker than trying to get a fully
> > official gismu.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> But I already see some sloppiness in thinking. 
> Is the vehicle in 
> question specifically a traditional bicycle -
> with two wheels and a 
> single seat.  Are we trying to include
> tricycles, bicycles built for two 
> or more, bicycles with a sidecar for a child
> passenger, all variations 
> that might or might not be included depending
> on the concept used and 
> the languages borrowed from.
> 
> If the point is that it is just a
> self-propelled wheeled vehicle (which 
> would include scooters and even roller skates),
> then sezycarce is 
> appropriate (self fills both the x2 and x3 of
> carce).  If you want 
> something else, you need to come up with the
> definition of precisely 
> what the concept does and does not include -
> and the more specific and 
> English like the definition, the more likely
> the word will be verbose.

Of course, I recommended figurative lujvo
precisely to avoid overprecision -- indeed,
precision at all.  If you get so precise that
there is no doubt what is meant just by looking
at the word, then the word is too long to be
useful.  Figurative constructions do seem to be
relatively less likely to be recognized for what
they are (?they contain a lot of local culture?),
but it is a relative matter and disappears once
the word is in actual use -- and the dictionary.
 
> Of course the real answer is that there should
> NOT be "a word for 
> bicycle".  There should be multiple words which
> overlappingly cover the 
> semantic space covered by the English word
> "bicycle".  The recognition 
> of a noralujv word having a valid meaning of
> "bicycle" doesn't preclude 
> there being two or three other valid words that
> also mean "bicycle" but 
> which convey different aspects of the concept,
> and overlap other 
> semantic arenas differently from the noralujv
> word.
> 
> A certain wise now-retired logic professor once
> said "Let a thousand 
> flowers bloom" when addressing this specific
> topic %^)

Indeed.