[lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all}

["Maxim Katcharov" <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

On 7/11/06, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Since this sounds a little like one pseudo-Whorfian hypothesis case, I give the usual counter:
> maybe people tend to make a strong divide between 1 and >1 because so many languages have a
> singular/plural distinction.  Causation is hard to work out when the two phenomena are known only simultaneously.

Like I said, it's something to consider. I currently don't have a
proof that this distinction proves my theory, but it is something that
seems very relevant. To me it seems natural that the distinction is,
and can only be, that our mind treats "a dog", and "the dogs" using
different structures (and not by 'loading', say, 1 identity that is a
dog, and then 152 identities that are each a dog), though both are
singular, all in the way that I described.

You should note that I don't go about repeatedly asserting that this
is the case, and that my position does not rely on something that
doesn't have a proof, as this doesn't, in order to be sensible. I
would like for proponents of the pluralist position to do the same.
This special plural-singular "variable" thing really isn't proven. I
don't even see how it can make sense, unless there is a perception of
the mind that differs drastically from mine.


On 7/11/06, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/11/06, Maxim Katcharov <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Are these 'dual/trial numbers' as pervasive as the "1 vs >1"
> > distinction in those languages?
>
> The grammatical distinction in English (and the other languages I'm familiar
> with) is not exactly between 1 and >1, but rather between 1 and non-1. We
> do use the plural for <1 too: "zero zebras", "0.5 kilograms", "minus one
> degrees", etc.

Yes, 1 and !1 is a better way to phrase it. I thought that it was
obvious that this is what I was getting at, considering my
explanations. I did go on about how a singular entity is conceived in
a way that is quite different from a numbered entity.


On 7/11/06, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
> I confess I haven't been reading this thread, whose interminability reminds me of the olden days of Lojban list. So forgive me if I repeat things that have already been said.
>
> 1. I believe that there are implicational universals governing grammatical number distinctions, namely if there are only two categories they are singular and plural, if there is a trial then there is a dual, and so forth. For the unlazy, see Corbett's _Number_ (reference on the Wiki page).
>
> 2. It was my immersion in lojbanology that made me realize that there is something somehow fundamental to the singular--plural distinction, in that only plurals, and not singulars, are sensitive to a collective--distributive distinction.

Good point. I'd like to know how this is accounted for in the
pluralist system (or rather, the system that opposes mine). If not
because of how I describe things to work, then why is it that it is
strange and perhaps impossible to treat singulars collectively?

> 3. It may be hard to prove that typological patterns across languages reflect human cognition rather than human cognition reflecting unexplained typological patterns. But the former (counterwhorfian) direction of causation is more explanatory.

I assume that language is based on cognition. Yes, a mind may be
affected by the lack of certain relationships, but I think that we
have a diverse enough number of languages to say that it is strange
that the distinction between 1 vs !1 is so pervasive/universal. I find
it hard to believe that some lack of a 1/2 vs !1/2 concept 1000000
years ago is what is responsible for this global 1 vs !1 distinction.

> --And.


xorxes had asked:

> How does your mind manage to process:
>   ro le panono tadni cu dasni lo mapku
> then?

I'd like to ask the same of my opposition, of those that think that in
our mind, there is only those 152 students, and nothing else. I argue
that you can't have 152 students in your mind in the first place,
which makes this perception of language inconsistent with how the mind
works.


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