Re: Lojban a natural language?

[ucleaar <ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk>]

Lojbab:
> >The voice of soapy reason saith:
> >> >Advocating grammar change in Lojbania is like advocating gun control in
> >> >the USA; sweet reason neither butters parsnips nor carries the day.  My
> >> >ambition is to look back in my dotage and tell my grandchildren "See
> >> >that cmavo?  It was me that got it into the language"
> >> Come on, And!  Isn't this true for any natural language?
> >Lojban isn't one, though.
> Yes, but if Lojban is to be used for linguistics research, then at some
> time, we have to treat it like one.

On the contrary, it will be of no interest to treat it like one if it
isn't one. Lojban is already being used for linguistics research -
that's what all the "how do you say it?"s and similar discussion on this
list is. The interest in these questions is not the answer to the
question "how is it customarily said?" but to "how should it logically
be said?". As you know, I think linguistics students would benefit from
studying Lojban, but if they are to study a natural language then
Lojban would be the last language to choose as a candidate. Of course
if children acquire it, then that's a different matter. It would be
extremely interesting.

> >> IF the Lojban design is complete, THEN we should allow no grammatical
> >> change except through natural linguistic evolutionary processes.
> >What is complete?  A hut is a complete dwelling, but it is not a palace.
> >You are willing that the hut's roof be fixed if it leaks, but not that
> >new storeys replete with ornate miradors be added, nor even that it be
> >given a new coat of paint.
> I mean complete in the same sense that we say any natural language is
> complete.  We do not and cannot fix the leaky roof of the English
> language, and many would say that no one has a "right" to.

The Lojban design is massively incomplete by this criterion. There are
huge gaping lacunae in the semantics and the lexicon.

> >Your will is representative of the Lojban community at large,
> I'd like to think so, but the last few months have made be wonder, given
> the unsettledness and unsettleability of some of the issues that have
> been raised.

The voluble contributors to the list are only a small minority of
the community at large, no?

> > and you also are at least rirni of the language,
> I like that description, given my understanding of parenting.  You have
> to let your child grow up, gaining ever-increasing independence and
> self-determinantion as it shows maturity.  JCB is a parent who could not
> let go; I hope to do better.
> > even if you would not consent to be considered a rorci.
> I would consent to being a component of loi rorci

Well, there are some loi rorci be Lojban such that Julius Caesar
or my left sock is a component of them. That's not saying much.

What you want to say is that you are a member of a rorci *group*,
not a component of a rorci *mass*. Probably you should just consent
to being {pa lo sohi rorci be loe jbobau}.

---
And