Re: loi jei loi nu klama cu muvdu

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

la kolin cusku di'e
>I'm not going to try this in Lojban.
>I don't agree with your analysis, but I do agree that there is something
>there that needs some thought. Here is a different analysis.

I agree with much of your analysis, and I definitely like the idea of
putting some thought into how FAhA and tags in general work.

>Note 1: the case of ne'a and re'o is far from clear. In particular, I do
>not know what the difference is.

I believe it's the same difference that exists between jibni and lamji,
namely that re'o/lamji require the two things related to be in contact
and ne'a/jibni don't.

>I now suggest that when mo'i is used with any of these, it expresses a
>ve muvdu unless the FAhA is -extended AND -directional, in which case it
>expresses a se muvdu. [Here is where I disagree with Jorge: I claim that
>mo'iri'u expresses a (translatable) direction in space, not a direction
>towards some point to the right of me.]

Let me give a fuller account. My main objective is to have as much
a systematic way of understanding tags as possible.
First let's start with bare FAhA. They work very much like PU:

                le gerku cu bajra ba le nundarxi
                The dog runs after the beating.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu balvi le nundarxi
                The dog's running happens after the beating.

                le gerku cu bajra ne'i le zdani
                The dog runs inside the house.
                 le nu le gerku cu bajra cu nenri le zdani
                The dog's running happens inside the house.

                le gerku cu bajra zu'a le tricu
                The dog runs left of the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu zunle le tricu
                The dog's running happens to the left of the tree.

                le gerku cu bajra te'e le rirxe
                The dog runs along the riverside.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu jimte le rirxe
                The dog's running happens bordering the river.

For most FAhA there is a matching gismu:

ca'u   crane
ti'a     trixe
zu'a   zunle
ri'u     pritu
ga'u   gapre
ni'a    cnita
ne'i    nenri
ru'u    sruri
pa'o   pagre
ne'a   jibni
te'e    jimte
re'o    lamji
zo'a    penmi
bu'u   zvati
be'a   berti
ne'u   snanu
du'a   stuna
vu'a    stici

And also we have:

fa'a   selfa'a
to'o   selterfa'a

                le gerku cu bajra fa'a le tricu
                The dog runs towards the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selfa'a le tricu
                The dog's running happens in the direction of the tree.

                le gerku cu bajra to'o le tricu
                The dog runs away from the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selterfa'a le tricu
                The dog's running happens in the direction away
                from the tree.

I'm not sure about {zo'i} and {ze'o}. From the note in page 253 of the
refgram I suppose that {zo'i ko'a} means the same as {fa'a mi to'o ko'a},
and {ze'o ko'a} means the same as {to'o mi to'o ko'a}, but I'm not sure.

The same sort of thing can be done with other tags, such as BAI tags:

                le gerku cu bajra mu'i le nunterpa
                The dog runs because of fear.
                le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selmu'i le nunterpa
                The dog's running happens motivated by fear.

Now, what happens with {mo'i} tags? I would like to find a
similar pattern. For example:

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu
                ?The dog barks while moving left of the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le zunle be le tricu
Or is it:
                ?The dog barks while moving all the way to the left of the
                tree.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fe_ le zunle be le tricu

I think the first makes more sense, and the second can
easily be obtained with {mo'izu'afa'a}, moving-left-towards.

                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le selfa'a
                be le zunle be le tricu
                The dog's barking happens in movement along a path
                that is oriented towards the left of the tree.

The meaning of tags directly on the selbri can be obtained from
the simple rule: {<tag> broda} = {broda <tag> zo'e}, i.e. with the
obvious-from-context reference. Then we have:

                le gerku cu mo'ica'ufa'a bajra
                The dog barks moving towards the front of the obvious
                thing (probably itself), i.e. moving forward.

This of course doesn't match the refgram's gloss, which would give
"moving forward" for {mo'ica'u}, without {fa'a}.

 As a last note, I'd like to point out that the only tags that don't always
follow the rule {<tag> broda} = {broda <tag> zo'e} are the members
ofZAhO, although some speakers do follow the rule even then. For
example, some will interpret {co'a ko'a} as "starting at ko'a" and
others will interpret it as "happening at the start of ko'a". The first is
the more systematic interpretation, but unfortunately the second is
the more official one.

co'o mi'e xorxes