[lojban] Re: Russian etymology of Lojban (was: Re: gismu etymology)

[mublin <mublin@dealloc.org>]

The list of Russian source words [1] has been updated. Many thanks to
everybody who has helped with this effort.

The entire list has been checked against Evgeny's work [2]; many
missing words have been added and erroneous reconstructions
corrected. Proposals made on this list have also been incorporated.

The English translations for the Russian source words have been
improved.

A list of known problems is included at the very end of this message,
help with any of these would be much appreciated.

 [1] https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/
 [2] http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=lojban.narod.ru

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:33:18PM +0100, Evgeny Sklyanin wrote:
> A while ago I have compiled a similar list for myself, having no
> intention to publish it. I have now attached the files to the Tiki
> page http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=lojban.narod.ru
> Hopefully, you can use them.

Thank you so much for making your list available. It was extremely
useful.

Some words in your list were missing entirely in mine, namely:

 balji [lukavits] луковица
 binxo [dien] денется
 dimna [ucast] участь
 drudi [dric] крыша
 fenra [triecin] трещина
 gacri [kriv] покрывать
 kramu [deklatin] десятина
 litru [raziezj] разъезжать
 nibli [vavlik] вовлекать
 pinji [xui] хуй
 plibu [palavi] половые
 plita [slosk] плоский
 sazri [abrac] обращаться
 snada [uda] удача

Words which are marked with "?" in your list, have been marked with
"FIXIT dubious" in my list. On the other hand, I removed "FIXIT"
comments in my list where I found the words corresponded with your
list and were not marked with "?".

By the way, what does ``денется'' mean? Somebody told me depending on
context it might mean ``verschwinden'' (German for ``to vanish; to
disappear'') -- but that didn't make much sense to me as a source word
for {binxo}.

There were also over a hundred words differing between our lists. In
most (if not all) cases, the difference was only in grammatical form,
such as noun vs. adjective or reflexive vs. nonreflexive verb. I
usually adopted your version, except for a few cases where my word
seemed phonetically closer to the Lojbanisation (even though it may
have been a poor choice of word from a Russian point of view,
something which I cannot tell, of course).

Finally, your list contains one Russian source word per gismu. It
should be noted that consequently not all my reconstructions could be
checked, because my list also contains alternative source words from
the original gismu etymology.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:33:46AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> I have not yet evaluated your work in details, but from a very first
> glance just two notes:
> 
> - translation form Korolev dictionary often contains a long list of
>   idiomatic usage cases, not related to the most direct meaning of a
>   word.
> 
> - translation for "bacru" keyword (it was on the first screen when
>   I have opened the page, so I have noted this immediately) is not
>   a translation in fact, but marking the word as perfect form and
>   reference to imperfect one (like {"said": see "say"} in English
>   dictionary).

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:57:58AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Now I see this is a typical case. My suggestion: even if you don't
> read Russian, you can improve your script: if translation from the
> Korolev dictionary has the form "сов. см. <word>.", then make a second
> lookup for this new word and put the result marked as such in your
> list. Probably this is worth doing even if the translation starts with
> such form followed with some other meanings after semicolon.

Yes, the English translations were quite poor. I hope this has much
improved now. I spent a lot of work on the lookup script, and then
went through all the translations manually. Please let me know if
there remain any mistranslations.

As an aside, the English translations from Korolew were added after
reconstructing the Russian source words, and without any editing to
start with. The actual reconstruction of the Russian source words was
done with other dictionaries, and also by "phonetic search" over a
Russian wordlist using the Lojbanisations in the original gismu
etymology.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> balji: I don't know the Russian word, but I do recognize the first three 
> letters as meaning "onion" and being a cognate of "leek".

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Right you are. There are two word confused: "LUkavitsa" is "onion
> bulb" and, by extension, other plants bulb (rarely used for anything
> but tulips and onions themselves). The same root "luk" is used as a
> keyword for {sluni}. The verb "luKAvit", on the other hand, means "to
> be insincere and/or deceitful" and is not related to bulbs or onions.

Thanks, added луковица, which is also in Evgeny's list.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> banro: расти and выращивать are derived from the same root.

There are entries for both of them because the original gismu
etymology names both [rasti] and [viraciv] as (Lojbanised) Russian
source words.

> barna: The Lojbanization of пятно can't be right, as it shows both vowels 
> reduced as if neither were stressed.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Correct Lojbanization is [piatNO].

Added as a comment.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> benji: Is there a verb переносить/перенести?

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Yes, it is. The noun "перенос"/"perenos" is derived from this verb.

Changed to переносить.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> canti: внутренний means "internal".

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Yes. But the noun "внутренности"/"vnutrennosti", derived from this
> adjective, means "innards".

Kept внутренности, also in Evgeny's list.



--------------------------------------------------
KNOWN PROBLEMS
--------------------------------------------------


Russian source word missing:

 sraji vertical [skak]
 tamne cousin [kuzinz]
 venfu revenge [vimie]
 cikna awake [nispat]
 dukse excess [lic]
 genja root [slov]


Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology:

 sorgu sorghum
 tunba sibling
 vlagi vulva


Russian source word dubious:

 binxo become [dien]
   денется [denetsâ] ``???''

 drudi roof [dric]
   крыша [kryša] ``roof''

 fulta float [nistis]
   нестись [nestisʹ] ``lay; rush; tear along; tear''

 gunka work [trudis]
   трудиться [truditʹsâ] ``work''

 katna cut [kas]
   косить [kositʹ] ``twist; squint; mow; mow down''

 kluza loose [blusk]
   блузка [bluzka] ``blouse''

 kramu acre [deklatin]
   десятина [desâtina] ``tithe; dessiatina (a measure of land = 2,7 acres)''

 nibli necessitate [vavlik]
   вовлекать [vovlekatʹ] ``draw; involve''

 patfu father [pad]
   папа [papa] ``dad''

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.


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