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[lojban] Re: Russian etymology of Lojban
Thank you all, the Russian etymology has been amended.
https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/
All Russian source words have been reconstructed, although 4-5 words
remain dubious. The changed entries in the Russian source word list
are included at the end of this message.
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 05:08:32PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> My wife helped me find and dig out the great Tome of Etymology from
> where it was buried. I spent a few minutes comparing what you had
> with what was in the book, and had no complaints about the dozen odd
> words I looked up.
Many thanks, I'm happy to hear that.
> Alas, a serious effort to use the book to solve your problems will
> take much time. The hundreds of sheets are not ordered in any way
> and are not indexed. There are 4 words to the typical page in no
> particular order, and thus the pages couldn't be ordered if I wanted
> to. The only way I will find the missing and problem words is
> pretty much to go through a page at a time.
>
> I still have the Russian dictionary we used for the original work as
> well.
>
> I'll see if I can make an effort on it in the next week or two.
I wouldn't have asked for it given the amount of work required. If you
do find the time to clarify some of the dubious or missing source
words, it would be much appreciated!
The most interesting gismu for the Russian etymology would be genja,
sraji, vlagi.
The gismu with missing source words are:
Spanish:
tanxe (box) [trank]
Chinese:
cicna (cyan) [cian]
ckunu (conifer) [cieugue]
lunsa (condense) [lu]
milxe (mild) [xe]
skiji (ski) [xuaciueji] (only the last component ``ji'' is unaccounted for)
tarla (tar) [ta]
tenfa (exponential) [cenfan]
vrici (miscellaneous) [ci]
The numbers of dubious or missing source words in all etymologies are:
Chinese: 47
English: 3
Russian: 5
Spanish: 10
These are marked with "FIXIT" both in the plain text and in the HTML
version.
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 08:45:12PM +0400, Dmitry Shintyakov wrote:
> > > venfu revenge [vimie]
>
> .i mi na briti .i pe'i zoi .ry вымещать .ry. mapti .i ta'o ri voksa
> smuni zoi jy. vymiescat .jy
ki'e doi dmitris .i ba'o se jmina
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 03:29:26PM +0100, Evgeny Sklyanin wrote:
> > sraji vertical [skak]
>
> Bizarre. "скакать" means "to jump" but why here?
Added and marked dubious. Who knows, the dictionary used originally
might have listed a phrase involving скакать under "vertical".
[snip]
> > genja root [slov]
>
> <слово> means <word> . My guess is that here <genja> got somehow
> mixed with <gismu>="root word"
Added and marked dubious.
> > sorgu sorghum
>
> сорго
Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank. The original gismu
etymology says:
> x17b sorgu 66.20 sorghum 1/2o
> typo should have been sargu, loses all Chinese and Hindi
> sorgu 32.80 0 4 0 4 4 0
so {sorgu} must have been derived from
English ``sorghum''
Spanish ``sorgo''
Russian ``сорго''
which had nonzero scores.
> > tunba sibling
>
> No Russian equivalent. In scientific literature one can find сиблинг
I'll assume there was no Russian source word then; mentioned сиблинг
only in the comment field.
> > vlagi vulva
>
> <vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina
Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank, and marked dubious.
> > binxo become [dien]
> > денется [denetsâ] ``???''
>
> денется is a finite form of the verb деться = to dissapear, to go away. Yes,
> it looks like a poor choice for <binxo>. It was just an attempt to account
> for the final <n> in [dien].
>
> On the other hand, if we assume that the original choice was [diel], and the
> final <l> was somehow corrupted, it makes much more sense: *дел*аться = to
> become
I see. Actually, this seems more probable to me because of the clear
semantic correspondence and the frequency of single letter typos in
the Lojbanisations. Changed to делаться, marked dubious, with a
comment about bad transcription and mention of денется as an
alternative reconstruction possibility.
Here come the changes. The five Russian source words still marked
dubious are listed first. (Actually, sorgu < сорго isn't really
dubious except for the fact that the Lojbanised form is not reported.)
--------------------------------------------------
CHANGES -- DUBIOUS
--------------------------------------------------
binxo become [dien]
делаться [delatʹsâ] ``become; get; grow''
--
FIXIT dubious
source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/
correct transcription ``diel''
cf. денется [denetsâ] ``finite form of the verb деться = to
disappear, to go away'' (variant)
genja root [slov]
слово [slovo] ``word''
--
FIXIT dubious
possibly by confusion with ``gismu''
sorgu sorghum []
сорго [sorgo] ``sorghum''
--
FIXIT dubious
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file
sraji vertical [skak]
скакать [skakatʹ] ``skip; jump; hop; gallop; be unsteady''
--
FIXIT dubious
vlagi vulva []
влагалище [vlagaliŝe] ``vagina''
--
FIXIT dubious
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file
--------------------------------------------------
CHANGES -- NOT DUBIOUS
--------------------------------------------------
cikna awake [nispat]
не спать [ne spatʹ] ``not to sleep''
drudi roof [dric]
крыша [kryša] ``roof''
correct transcription ``kric''
dukse excess [lic]
лишний [lišnij] ``excessive''
fulta float [nistis]
нестись [nestisʹ] ``lay; rush; tear along; tear''
--
cf. носиться [nositʹsâ] ''rush; rush about *ненаправл.*; scud (along)
*направл.*; skim (along, over); gallop (*скакать*); fly (*летать*);
*float, drift (по воде, в воздухе)*'' (imperfective form of нестись;
source: http://lingvo.yandex.ru/)
gunka work [trudis]
трудиться [truditʹsâ] ``work; toil; labour; be working; bother; take the trouble''
--
correct transcription ``trud''
katna cut [kas]
косить [kositʹ] ``mow; mow down''
--
cf. коса [kosa] ``scythe''
kluza loose [blusk]
блузка [bluzka] ``blouse''
kramu acre [deklatin]
десятина [desâtina] ``tithe; dessiatina''
--
measure of land equivalent to 2,7 acres (source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/)
correct transcription ``desiatin''
nibli necessitate [vavlik]
вовлекать [vovlekatʹ] ``draw; involve''
--
cf. влечь [vlečʹ] ``drag, pull; necessitate (math.)'' (derivation source)
patfu father [pad]
папа [papa] ``dad''
--
correct transcription ``pap''; cf. папочка [papočka] ``dad'' (variant)
tamne cousin [kuzinz]
кузина [kuzina] ``cousin (female)''
--
correct transcription ``kuzin(a)''
tunba sibling []
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file:
--
no Russian equivalent
cf. сиблинг [sibling] ``sibling (scientific; rare)''
venfu revenge [vimie]
вымещать [vymeŝatʹ] ``avenge; take it out on''
--
correct transcription ``vimiec''
vibna vagina [blagalic]
влагалище [vlagaliŝe] ``vagina''
--
correct transcription ``vlagalic''
--
mu'o mi'e mublin.
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