[lojban] Re: How to reduce the amount of something?

["Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org>]

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On 10/01/2009 09:46 AM, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> 
> If "lo ni ..." refers to a number, it can decrease. If it refers to a
> property, "lo ka ... xo kau ..." then it can be the property in which
> something decreases.
> 
> The reason I keep using "ni" instead of "ka ... xo kau ..." is that
> the placement of the "xo kau" is not always as obvious as is "du'u xu
> kau" for "jei". I some time suggested "ni" = "ka se la'u li xo kau",
> but it is definitely more awkward than the "xu kau" substitute for
> "jei".

If it's all about awkwardnessfullness, why didn't you just stick with
{jei}, which is certainly less awkward than {du'u xukau}?  I thought the
problem was that {jei} didn't mean what you needed it to mean.  That is,
it didn't mean "the truth-value of some proposition" in intension, but
meant simply one of {"true", "false"}, and that usually isn't what you
want to talk about.  If that is so (and I'm not saying it is; I'm trying
to get a handle on this too), then presumably {ni} doesn't mean what you
need either, but rather means some number, in extension, and is thus not
subject to reduction (you can't reduce "35", but you can reduce "the
number of kilograms someone weighs").  You can say things like {lo ni mi
ca tilju cu mleca lo ni mi pu tilju} but not {lo ni mi tilju cu se
cenba}.  If we *can* say that, then suddenly {ni} and {jei} become
useful again, and kau is not needed for every little thing.

So which is it?  Is {ni} the same as {ka se la'u li xo kau} or something
like that, in which case {jei} is the same as {du'u xu kau}, and the
latter is used only because xorxes for some bizarre reason thinks that
four syllables is more elegant?  Or is {jei} just a true/false value,
which must be substituted by {du'u xu kau} in many situations, in which
case we need to use {ka se la'u li xo kau} or whatever in place of {ni}?
 You can't have it both ways.

~mark
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