Re: [jbovlaste] malranxi

[Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se>]

Moving discussion to lojban-list.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Comments, please.
>
> malranxi r1=m2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3
>
> from
>
> mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3
> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3.
>
> gloss:
> sarcastic
> caustic sounding
>
> This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person.
> Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2.

I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck
of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
 Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant
to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you
mean is usually a little unexpected.

For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of
what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:

    In English:  dutsku: x1=c1 says x2=c2=d1 to x3=c3 through medium
x4=c4, but means the opposite, namely x5=d2 (text)

    In Lojban:  lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u dutsku cu du'u ko'a
cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'e na .e ko'u noi
dukti ko'e

    dutsku1: ironic person
    dutsku2: ironic utterance
    dutsku3: audience of irony
    dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance
    dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance

(I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo
ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in
the place structure of {dutsku} itself.)


Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---

    ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event)
by doing activity x4 (event)

--- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases.

But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal
opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu
dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.

I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm.  It's a rather
ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of
"sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.


-- 
Daniel Brockman
daniel@brockman.se