Re: [lojban] Re: [jbovlaste] malranxi

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> wrote:
>
>> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3.
>
> I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck
> of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.

So:
r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin
r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics
r3: tragic

Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might
be "funny" or "poetic justice".
No idea what a state in x3 would mean though.

> For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of
> what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:

That might work, but I'm not sure saying the opposite of what you mean
is enough for being ironic. "dutsku" sounds like being contrarian
rather than being ironic. It may be part of it, but it doesn't seem to
be the central part. The central part has to be that the act of saying
it is ironic in the sense of ranxi. I would keep "ranxi" in the lujvo
rather than the weaker "dukti", so I suggest "raxsku"
"x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to
expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual
expectation when someone says something)

I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.

> Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---
>
>    ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event)
> by doing activity x4 (event)
>
> --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases.
>
> But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal
> opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu
> dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.

Or "raxyckasu", "ckasu fo lo ranxi",  x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2
about x3 by doing something ironic, contrary to expectation.

> I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm.  It's a rather
> ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of
> "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.

I guess we need the context in which the word is used too. One common
use is to say "I was just being sarcastic", as a kind of apology for
saying something that wasn't well received. In that situation I might
go with "mi pu xalbo", or "mi pu ranxi xalbo".

mu'o mi'e xorxes