Re: pamoi xatra

[Robin Turner <robin@bilkent.edu.tr>]

la .evgenis. cusku di'e

>
> Actually, I have some difficulties with choosing Russian equivalents of the
> {cilre/ctuca/tadni} cluster. First of all, English verb 'to learn' (and
> definitions of gismu  are given in English!) is depressingly polysemantic.
> I can distinguish at least 3 meanings:
>
> (A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban
> from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.
>
> (B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'
>
> (C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban'
>
> Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}?

Well , the definition is

cilre [ cli ] learn
x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method x5
(event/process)

I would assume then that {cilri} means "acquire knowledge/information about
something", though the {du'u} kind of invites sentences like

mi puza cilre du'u la .evgenis. cu jbomi'u
(I recently learned that Yevgeny was a fellow Lojbanist)

which kind of nullifies the third place.  There again, I've never been able to get
the hang of {du'u}.

English doesn't really draw a distinction between knowledge and information, except
in mystical discourse and translations of Plato {zo'o}. For example, a spiritual
teacher might say

"True knowledge is found only by those whose hearts are pure"

but not

"True information is found only by those whose hearts are pure"

However, I would find it hard to say what the difference is.  Maybe the difference
between {datni} and {seldjuno} - whatever that is!

On reflection, I think "learn" in the sense of "acquiring a skill" would need a
different word, since {mi cilre fi la lojban.} doesn't actually imply that I learn
to speak/write/understand Lojban, only that I have acquired some information about
it, which I may or may not be able to put to practical use. {tadni} might work if
it is intended to include practical skills as well as abstract knowledge e.g.

mi tadni la taidcitcuan.
I study taijiquan (t'ai chi)


> In Russian these are 3 strictly
> not interchangeable verbs:
>
> (A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')
>
> (B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic).
> However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather
> a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
> erased).
>
> (C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)
>
> May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar phrases?
> Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
> places in {cilre}?
>

You'll have to ask Lojbab or Ivan to translate those ;-)

>
> >I'd say
> >
> > se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
> > [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
> >
> > or
> >
> > mi pavysei jbotadni
> > I alone-type Lojbanic-study
> >
>
> Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear
> 'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
> superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
> usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
> a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
> a practical skill.
>
> Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn".

Hmm, like Turkish: "ög^retmek" (teach) - a causative; "ög^renmek" (learn) - one of
those weird Turkish passive-stative thingies.

> English
> "to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
> one uses other verbs e.g.
>
> 'Could you tell/give me your phone number, please?'
>
> French [apprendre] and Japanese [oshieru] include, however, also meaning (A):
>
> [Fr] Apprenez-moi le numero de telephone, s'il vous plait
>
> [Jap] denwa bango wo oshiete kudasai
>
> (I heard once a Japanese to say in English "Please teach me your phone number")
>

A very perceptive observation - you can learn someone's phone number, but they
wouldn't "teach" it to you.  It seems "teach" has to involve the presentation of
information in some systematic way.  I could, for example, teach someone my
telephone number if they had an appalling memory e.g.

"Ok, let's try again. 2664320.  Remember all the university numbers start with 266,
and the rest is just like counting down, except the 1 is missing, so you get a zero
at the end."




>
> Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
> style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?
>

I'm not sure if you can use {dunda} for transfer of information.

co'o mi'e robin.