Re: [lojban] 3 loaves

[Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@math.bas.bg>]

From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@math.bas.bg>

Jorge Llambias wrote:
> la ivAn cusku di'e
> >I did wonder if {za'o} could be used for a state holding
> >beyond a would-be {co'u} point, as opposed to a process
> >going on beyond its {mo'u} point.
> 
> I think it makes sense. {za'o xagji} is grammatical,
> so that seems to be the likeliest meaning.

Something can be grammatical and still have no likely meaning.

> After all, in general the would-be {co'u} point of a process
> is its {mo'u} point, so it is a valid generalization.

There can be different ways of looking at this.  The Codex says:
`The span of time between the natural and the actual end points
is represented by "za'o": {le xirma ca za'o jivna bajra} [...]
which means that it ran past the finish line (after the race was
over [...])'.  That doesn't say if the same sentence could mean
that the horse ran after a potential (though unnatural) end point
-- something that could've made it stop (injury, loss of a shoe,
loss of jockey, whatever).  I like Pycyn's way of putting it
(`still around after its time is up'), but I'm not sure I know
that the time of hunger is up when one has eaten.

> >I mean that if the English sentence _He ate another loaf_
> >is translated word-by-word into Bulgarian or German, it will
> >come across as putting undue emphasis on the fact that the
> >second loaf was different from the first one (as if it could
> >have been the same one).

My mother once confused a German waitress briefly by ordering
`eine andere Limonade' (malglico or malfraso for `noch eine').

> Maybe that's the difference between {drata} and {frica}.

Maybe.  Or maybe {drata} means `another' (not the same one)
and {frica} means `different' (not of the same kind).  That
is another parameter on which natlangs vary.

Then there's a language-related stylistic thing: when talking
of a recurring situations, some languages prefer to count
(`ate a loaf ... ate a 2nd one ... ate a 3rd one') and others
prefer not to (`ate a loaf ... one more ... and one more').


Iain Alexander wrote:
> Robert McIvor's solution is of course good - {krefu citka}.
> 
> I think John Cowan's problem -
> {ko'a refcti pa nabytai} suggest that the same loaf was eaten
> both times - depends on lujvo vs. tanru and other grouping factors.
> Using a lujvo does indeed make it seem like <repeat-eat> is a
> single concept applying to a single loaf.

I second that sentiment.  I like best Michael Helsem's suggestion,
{krefu lemu'e nabybli citka}.

sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru wrote:
> Ivan Derzhanski wrote:
> >{ca'o xagji} `he is continuously hungry': doesn't {co'unai}
> >get the point across better?
> 
> When choosing {ca'o} I relied on the Book, section 10:10, example 10.2
> 
>   la stiv. ca'o bacru = Steve continues to talk.

`Steve is talking' is perhaps a better translation, since {ca'o}
merely selects the middle part of the event contour, and `still'
and `continue to' do something more than that:  they *presuppose*
that Steve has not just started talking and *emphasise* the fact
that he hasn't stopped, although he might (be expected to) have
done.

> As for "continuosly hungry", isn't it rather  {ru'i xagji}?

Well, yes, but that's a different sense of `continuously'.

-- 
<'al-_haylu wa-al-laylu wa-al-baydA'u ta`rifunI
 wa-as-sayfu wa-ar-rum.hu wa-al-qir.tAsu wa-al-qalamu>
                       (Abu t-Tayyib Ahmad Ibn Hussayn al-Mutanabbi)
Ivan A Derzhanski                     <http://www.math.bas.bg/~iad/>
H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria          <iad@math.bas.bg>
W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences

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