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Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument.

Thank you for posting this.  I went through the same process
rlpowell did, when I read this.

I've been interested int the many recent dicussions about lojban
typography, and have attempted to summarize them here:

  http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=typography

It seems we've approaching some manner of consensus on what
constitutes good Lojban typography, and I've attempted to
express that in the above page.

This page is very rough, and include unfinished sections and open
questions.  I hope I've capture the spirit of where most of us are
at, though I haven't included the justifications for these
decisions, including a further summary of the conclusion of this IRC
thread.

I'd love for you to contribute what you know and like to this page.

-Alan

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 07:33:02PM -0600, Brian Robertson wrote:
> There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation
> marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here
> to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell
> any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre.
> 
> ---
> 
> <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks.  >:|
>  * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name.
> < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks?
>  * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just forgets
> <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism
> <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like.
> <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is pronounced lu in this work", .... enh.  I can live.
> <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite parts of the language.
> < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me
> <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku «lu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain?
> < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters
> <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really like Lojban's simple morphology.
> <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no.
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi?
> < tomoj> except when quoted
> <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visual isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it.
> <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding.
> < tomoj> it's already fucked up
> < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as I know.
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm.  Not Lojban as I speak it.
> < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example
> < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example
> < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable
> < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines between paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words?
> <@rlpowell> Not to me.  And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways.
> < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily represented in speech
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information.
> < tomoj> neither do these
> <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed.
> < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good
> < jcowan> Of course they do.  Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o.
> < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a « to mean anything at all
> < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading
> < jcowan> Exactly.
> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text
> < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "«" where you want "«lu", your text is ungrammatical
> < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse.
> < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs?
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak out this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining, or STFU.  And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike.
> <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too
> <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text -- and that.
> <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds must always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text must come back identical".
> < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words, and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would be a huge pain.
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain?
> <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it.
> <@rlpowell> Yeah.
> <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn.
> <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list, because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thing were doing the same conflation as I was.
> 
> ---
> 
> .lorx.
> 
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.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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