Re: Re: [lojban] admire

[Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>]

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 6:34 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> or maybe we should just have different words
> for the different cases we use "admire".

.ie sai

There's no reason not to think about the meanings of all of those
lujvo.  If we think of good meanings for them, we'll make our language
that much richer.

Here are some feelings I have about these various roots:

nelci: the x1 has some sort of positive feeling about the x2, not
necessarily a strong feeling (though possibly), and they're not
necessarily very familiar or intimate with the x2 (though they could
be).

prami: the x1 has a feeling of closeness and connection with the x2
that comes from some intimate familiarity.

sinma: the x1 feels that the x2 has high standing, that it's deserving
of attention and respect, that it's important.

manci: the x1 feels awed by the x2, perceiving the x2 or thinking
about its qualities overwhelms the x1, they feel astounded by it.

melbi: this is the other way around, the x2 is having an experience of
perceiving the x1, in particular they're perceiving x3, some aspect of
the x1, and they find the x1 to be beautiful in that aspect when
judged by standard x4.

pluka: this doesn't fit the shape of the others, in this case the x1
is an event, one which has the potential to please the x2, to make
them feel good, but they are only pleased by the event when the
conditions x3 also hold, for instance eating a good meal might be a
pluka to you, but only if you haven't already just had one.

It seems just a little odd or redundant to mix "zgana" in with any of
those, because they're already experiences that the x1 (or in the case
of "melbi" and "pluka", the x2) is having.  To "zgana" something is to
somehow perceive it, and these are all descriptions of experiences, so
I think they already include the experiencer perceiving the object or
at least perceiving their experience.  Perhaps though we could find
some meaning though to the way "neizga" and "macyzga" and "pukyzga"
and so forth put the focus on the perceptive element.

Now that I've thought about it for another while, it seems to me that
in most of these cases, you can feel the emotion about something while
pondering it, thinking about it, remembering it, not just while
directly perceiving it.  So perhaps the addition of -zga means to feel
that way about the object while directly perceiving the object
(looking at it, touching it, any terzga).  So for instance "pa'izga"
would mean, "x1 loves x2 while perceiving it/them through sense x3
under conditions x4", to feel love for something or someone while
looking at them, hearing them, touching them, etc.

I'm struck differently by "selpu'azga" (se zei pluka zei zgana).  In
that case I'd think that the event of observing the x2 is itself is a
pluka to the x1.  It seems to me that "selpu'azga" might be a more
fitting word in many cases where we use "se melbi", which I would say
has an element of judgement and dispassion implied by the presence of
its third and fourth places.  To selpu'azga something is clearly to
enjoy observing it, but it is possible to have little or no enjoyment
of something while still judging it to be (by some standard)
beautiful.  (It's possible we could elide the "sel" in this, but it's
also possible that to "pu'azga" could include perceiving that someone
else is pleased.)

I'm not sure any of that is relevant to the translation you're doing.
I don't know the context, but I doubt that a plain "sinma" would be
off the mark.  Like all gismu its meaning is very broad.

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

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