Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 12:56 AM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks!  That clarifies matters nicely. So 'da'oi' just marks the speaker's empathetic sharing of the emotion of someone other than the you in the situation.

It could also be with the you (and "dai" could also be with someone
other than the you.) "da'oi" just allows you to be explicit about who
it is with.

> So no problem with that.  There is a problem, however, if the move is made from this expression of my second-hand emotion to either a claim that the third party is feeling that emotion or an expression of that third party's emotion.

Right, "da'oi" is not used to make any claims. But if I hear you
expressing empathy with X on attitude Y, I can legitimetely conclude
that you are attributing attitude Y to X. It is of course impossible
to conclude from that that X actually does have that attitude. There
are a million reasons why you may be attributing that attitude to
them. I cannot even conclude that you really think they have that
attitude, since in some contexts it is perfectly sensible to attribute
attitudes that you know they don't have (tongue-in-cheek, humor,
deceit, etc.)

>It is not clear which of these -- or something else -- the various participants in this discussion are proposing but what they say seems to be one or the other or the two mixed in some not very useful way.  In any case, I take it that, in fact, both are quite correctly not supported in the actual system.

I really don't see what all the brouhaha about this is.

In the case of "peekaboo!", I would just say "ua". Not because I'm
actually discovering anything, but because I'm expressing "discovery"
for the benefit of the baby.

In the case of the magician's "surprise!", "uedai" is perfectly fine,
not because the magician is actually surprised, but because acting
surprised is part of their act. Of course it depends on the magician,
some may prefer acting cool and detached, others pretend to be as
surprised as their audience, or even more surprised, in which case a
first hand "ue" might be even more appropriate. Magicians are
performers, and what they say is part of their performance.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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