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Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)

Ivo Doko wrote:
- I constantly read people both newbies and oldies ranting on about how there's so much work yet to be done on lojban 

This is a relative thing.
Much of the "work yet to be done" consists of completing the originally promised set of language documentation (something I promised back in 1989 or so, but was unable to deliver myself). The job is too big for one or two people. It is NOT too big for the current community, but will still take a lot of time because we don't have any paid, full-time, workers (whereas most published dictionaries are made by a small army of workers using specially designed software).
If we has 100 full time workers skilled in the language, and knew how to use them effectively, the "so much work" would disappear rather quickly. We don't, so it takes longer, and it seems that progress is extremely slow.
And yet, how long does it take OED to put out a new edition, even with and army of workers: decades. We should be able to do better, because Lojban is not English, and we don't need an OED-equivalent to have a useful language. 

> and how every now and then
someone will take upon him-/herself to finish whatever is left unfinished and it will look like he/she will accomplish it but then he/she gives up and yadda yadda. To me that seems like lojban is, to put it as simple as possible, not finished.
No. It means that it maintains higher standards than its current all-volunteer work crew has been able to manage. The documentation lags the reality. 

> Esperanto, on the other hand, is.

No it isn't. No language is "finished" until it is a dead language.

> Were you trying to say that Esperanto isn't finished either? It may
not be as "fully defined" as lojban is, but that doesn't really say much. 

Actually, it says a lot.

> Esperanto never aimed to be what lojban aims to be - a completely

logical and fully unambiguously defined language.
Lojban never aimed to be that either. It is a false ideal, indeed a straw man. 

> Instead, Esperanto
aimed to be a language which is as unambiguous and as regular as it can be while still operating like a naturally-evolved language as much as possible. 

It never achieved that either.

> In order for a language to be like that, it doesn't have to be

as fully defined as lojban does in order to be finished,


Since no language can be finished, the argument is a waste.
The question is whether the language is well-enough defined that a novice can come in, pick up the language materials and study them, and come out speaking passable Lojban within a reasonable amount of time.
This has been demonstrated, but so far only with bright and highly motivated people. Some who are less motivated, demand a more formal set of documentation in order to be so-motivated, and they would demand that of Esperanto as well. Esperanto doesn't have that either. It does have dictionaries, but its primary advantage is its larger community and larger body of already written materials. It also requires a relatively low skill level of beginners for them to think of themselves as "Esperantists".
We're not there yet, but we aren't far (though not far is still "a lot of work" for part time volunteers), and we aren't trying to emulate Esperanto's path in any event. 

>which is the reason why Esperanto is a finished language

Esperanto is not a finished language.  Nor is English.
while lojban is not. Even though lojban is better defined than Esperanto, it's not as fully defined as it should be in order for it to be finished, because the current level of its well-definiteness is not good enough for what lojban aims to be.
"should be" is arbitrary, as are the "aims". So your argument merely creates a straw man that isn't really the target, so it cannot possibly be "finished". 

lojbab

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