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Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI
I've been collecting notes on good typesetting style for Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=typography
One of the open questions related to the fact that we allow 1, 2, 3,
&c to mean pa, re, ci, &c. Since we do this, how should we treat
123.5? What about 1,024? '.' and ',' are both valid lerfu, so is
it ambiguous to write "1,234.56"? camxes parses this, but drops the
decimal point. ;-) (I'm ignoring the issue also that these are
not universal conventions for writing numbers)
Then do you want to allow 1:23:59 to mean 1 hour, 23 minutes, 59
seconds? Can you pronounce ':' pi'e?
These seem to be natural questions that arise from allowing 1 => pa.
I think your too clever by half example is a great contribution to
this question.
-Alan
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:37:09PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, .alyn.post.
> <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that
> zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. This excludes
> " from being used. Nevertheless, I give you points for
> cleverness there. :-D
>
> If one wanted to be too clever by half, one could argue that " is a
> representation of the cmevla {.quot.} like 4 is a representation of the
> namcu valsi {vo}.
>
> -Alan
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> > I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid,
> although I
> > could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or
> at
> > least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter
> delimiters.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post.
> > <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> >
> > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar
> > is:
> >
> > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF?
> > / EOF
> >
> > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space,
> > which includes punctuation like ? and !.)
> >
> > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe
> > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting
> > question:
> >
> > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is
> > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits
> > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted
> > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the
> > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that
> > coincidentally is .y.
> >
> > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it
> > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage
> > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that
> > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been
> > experimenting with Y handling.
> >
> > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency?
> > What do you think?
> >
> > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage:
> >
> > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?"
> >
> > And he opined no.
> >
> > -Alan
> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote:
> > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only;
> quotes
> > a
> > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or whitespace
> > (in
> > > writing)".
> > >
> > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie
> > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces
> > >
> > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know if
> it
> > > will make a difference
> > >
> > > mu'o mi'e ros
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post.
> > > <[1][2][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed definition
> > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing
> > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are
> > > shown here.
> > >
> > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI
> > >
> > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post
> > > -> ZOhOI-clause
> > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces?
> > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause
> > >
> > > CMAVO <- ...
> > > / ZOhOI
> > > / ...
> > >
> > > sumti-6 <- ...
> > > / ZOhOI-clause free*
> > > / ...
> > >
> > > known-cmavo-sa <- ...
> > > / ZOhOI-pre
> > > / ...
> > >
> > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing.
> > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI'
> > > ;;
> > > known-cmavo-pre <- ...
> > > / ZOhOI-pre
> > > / ...
> > >
> > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre clause,
> > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is
> > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this
> > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to
> > > present to the BPFK.
> > >
> > > -Alan
> > > --
> > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
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> > > References
> > >
> > > Visible links
> > > 1. mailto:[9][10]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > > 2. mailto:[10][11]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > 3. mailto:[11][12]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > 4. [12][13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > --
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> >
> > --
> > Alex R
> >
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> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. mailto:[20]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > 2. mailto:[21]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > 3. mailto:[22]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 4. mailto:[23]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 5. [24]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 6. mailto:[25]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 7. mailto:[26]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 8. [27]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 9. mailto:[28]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > 10. mailto:[29]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 11. mailto:[30]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 12. [31]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 13. mailto:[32]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 14. mailto:[33]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 15. [34]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
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> --
> Alex R
>
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> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 3. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 5. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 6. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 7. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 8. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 10. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 12. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 17. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 18. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 19. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 20. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 21. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 22. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 23. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 24. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 25. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 26. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 27. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 28. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 30. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 36. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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