If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose.
Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?--
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.(also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p )--On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual
claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write,
but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just
isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard.
--gejyspa
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office")
>> Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
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