Re: [lojban] girzu gi'i gunma gi'i se gunma

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:30 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>  no'i la ciftoldi joi la .alis. ze'a simxu lo nu smaji catlu (newer version)
>
> Why "joi", given that "ce" would be in more accordance with the
> dictionary definition of simxu1 (a set)?

I don't use sets, since they don't really add much and they cause
trouble in some cases. For example, consider this other sentence from
Alice:

.i lo re mei cu pilno sy lo nu kicne kei gi'e vregau lo bircidni sy
gi'e simxu lo ka tavla ga'u lo sy stedu

If you tried to do that with sets, you'd have to jump through some
loops, since sets can't use stuff or rest their elbows on something.

>I'm personally of the opinion
> that the dictionary doesn't have to confine this x1 to one type or the
> other; but if it's just that we don't have to be as much strict about
> what makes for simxu1, why not "ju'e", which presumably is already
> generic?

I would use "jo'u" now, since I think "joi" and "jo'u" are basically
synonymous, but "joi" has the problem that some people interpret it as
introducing a new entity (a "mass") that counts separately from the
entities it is composed of. I couldn't really say how "ju'e" differs
from them either.

>  ci mi'o
>  = ci lo me mi joi do
>  = ci da poi me mi joi do
>
> My question: Does this "da" refer to lo gunma or lo se gunma? In other
> words, is each of the three referents of "ci da" a group or an
> individual?

As an aside, "ci da" does not have referents, since it's a quantifier
binding a free variable. I understand your question, though. Does the
domain over which "da" ranges contain a single member (one of those
"mass" things) or maybe at least three of those "mass" things, or does
it contain people (presumably at least three). I say no such things as
"masses" are involved, mass-talk is just a way of saying that the
reference to many is not to be taken distributively.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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