Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>
> Or do you want to say that it *doesn't* follow that those neurons
> collectively {besna}, because the semantics of besna are such that only
> individual brains satisfy {besna}? And generally that plural predication
> is reserved for a few special predicates like {sruri}? That might make
> the ambiguities more manageable.

Yes, that's what I think. Some predicates require collective
predication, some require distributive predication, and some are happy
with both. That's part of the meaning of each predicate. It may be
more a matter of having an affinity for a certain type of predication
rather than an absolute requirement. Perhaps in some context it may
make sense to say that some neurons are a brain.

>> then I don't see much of a problem in using "lo go'i", i.e.
>> "lo besna", to refer to the same things that "lo so'i nirna" refers
>> to.
>
> But what are the referents of {lo besna}? Brains, or neurons?

The referent of "lo besna" is always brains, and in addition, whenever
neurons are brains, brains are neurons, so in that case, the referents
of "lo besna" are also neurons.

> If you
> leave it ambiguous, won't this cause confusion? e.g. how would you
> translate "these brains are conscious" without being misunderstood as
> claiming that each of their constituent neurons are?

This particular example doesn't seem like it would ever cause
confusion, but in general I suppose you would have to go with
something like "ti noi ro ke'a besna cu sanji" if you need that kind
of precision. The only way to make sure your predicate appplies
distributively is through a quantifier.


>> I think that whether there is a magic cmavo or not, there must
>> definitely be an "x1 constitute x2" relation as an ordinary selbri.
>
> Which holds when x2 has referent a group, x1 has as referents the
> constituents of that group, and the predication is read collectively on
> the left? And never holds with a distributive reading on the left? Or
> can, but only when x1 and x2 both have the same single referent?

Well, if you force me to make a decision, I would say x1 has a very
strong affinity for a distributive reading. I can't commit to saying
it forbids a collective reading.


> So how do you see collective predication and groups-as-individuals
> interacting?

I would say predicate-logic-Lojban (whenever quantifiers get involved)
has a preference for groups-as-individuals, while ordinary
conversation Lojban has a preference for collective predication.
Lojban is weird because it doesn't have plural quantifiers, which are
really needed for logically handling collective predication, and it
doesn't have singular variables, other than "da", "de", "di". So it's
a strange mix.

>> > A group is a kind of individual, so a possible referent of a sumti-6.
>>
>> Certainly, for example a referent of "lo girzu".
>>
>> > A group has as data a set of individuals - its constituents.
>>
>> OK.
>
> If you agree that this is all the data in a group, then {girzu} is
> maybe not a good word to use... how about {zilgri}, defined to kill the
> x2 and x4 places of {girzu}?

Why not "gunma"?

I didn't mean to say "lo girzu" is the most general kind of group,
just an example of an individual that also happens to be a group. I
could have used "lo bende", or "lo lanzu".  I think "lo gunma" should
be the most general case.

>> >Things "collectively broda" iff the group whose constituents are
>> >those things brodas.
>>
>> I'm not sure this will always hold. Do we need it for something?
>
> Elegance?

OK, I can't think of any serious objection. Even things like "lo ci
prenu cu pa mei" can be read collectively (as in "lo ci prenu cu pa
mei lo bende").

mu'o mi'e xorxes

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.