Re: [lojban] Re: Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions?

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

a, b, c, d (see, you have only to ask and there is no penalty for asking).  By 
definition, every thing in Lojban comes in discrete packets, either their 
natural bodies, for things that are naturally discrete, or in unspecified 
quantities, for things like water and air and flour (masses),  This is a 
characteristic of Standard Average European languages of which Lojban is an 
epitome (the other is that things and properties are clearly distinct).  The 
virtue of this issue is that things can be counted directly, whereas, if there 
were masses, we would have to interpose some standard measure and then count how 
many of those full were involved. But it is hard to get rid of discrete things 
in favor of masses  (much more so than to discretize masses, as noted) so Lojban 
has struggled with this for most of its history, with some promising -- but 
hardly definitive  -- results in the last few years.  These results involve the 
use of L-set, or, more accurately, just dealing with bunches of things, with 
very fluid boundaries within and between bunches.  You don't need to know what 
L-sets are, you just need to be able to manipulate linguistic expressions that 
refer to them (though knowing a bit may help with that).

e.  Yes, lots of things, come help us clear them up.



----- Original Message ----
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 2:51:09 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Should we have another mailing list for abstruse 
discussions?

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:47 PM, djandus <jandew@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, two main issues. Messy threads:
> 2) could send the wrong message to new Lojbanists

Can I elaborate on that? And John sorry if I pick an example from one
of your emails, it's just the last one in the thread at the moment.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:30 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> No classifiers because Lojban (in keeping with its SAE status) is rigorously
> count.  In fact, one ongoing problem in Lojban has been how to get mass terms 
>in
> where they are "necessary" (so much, again for S-WH).  L-sets help a bit.  
It's
> not clear that kinds do.

Imagine that I am a new Lojbanist and being, as I am, ignorant of
linguistics, I understand from what you write that:

A) Lojban has no classifiers! (whatever they are) because has a SAE status (??
B) Lojban is count!!! (whatever it means)
C) Lojban has a problem in expressing "masses" even where they are necessary!!
D) I need to know what L-sets are before being able to use masses in Lojban
E) Something is not clear about Lojban.

Frankly, this would be more than enough to make me turn away and
spread words that Lojban is impossible to use.
I'm sure it's my fault and I can't understand those high level concept
but at the same time, I'm sure that I *can* use Lojban (poorly, maybe,
but I'll learn eventually) and I'm sure that there's a way to say
anything that i want to say (and maybe more).

It may be too little and it also may be not really effective, but I'm
working hard to create things that could attract new people to lojban
(children books, comics, cheat sheets) as I think we lack the critical
mass we need. I'm really worried about the impact of mixing extremely
high level discussions with more mundane ones as, for me, they might
be misinterpreted as a sign that Lojban is a a poorly designed
language.

remod

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