[lojban] The importance of terbri restrictions

[djandus <jandew@gmail.com>]

Robin brought this up in another thread, and I was already pondering it because of mine about {fenki}, so I thought I'd start a thread.

Please link to old threads if this has already come up before. (as I suspect it has)

So, the issue is that sometimes, the restrictions on what types of sumti can go in a place are obnoxious and seem unnecessary. Rather than argue a ton that they are unnecessary, I'd rather hear some arguments for their utility so that I know what the heck is going on. I mean, a lot of the {ka} restrictions make sense, but many {nu} restrictions seem bulky. In particular:

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/zunti

If I ask you for the distinction between {zunti} and {dicra}, it would be conceptual -- {dicra} actually stops x₂, while {zunti} feels more like a sort of {troci lo nu dicra}.

However, the place structure restrictions don't line up -- d₂ says it can be an object! I'm a huge fan of symmetry, and I find it rather awkward for there to be a restriction on one of these that isn't on the other. So, what's the reason for this split? Is it an accident? Regardless, why stop there? What is the harm in allowing there to be an object in the x₁ with the implication that there is some {lo nu zunti} for which x₁ is {lo gasnu}. More formally, why not make the definition for zunti be something like:

x₁ interferes with/hinders/disrupts x₂ due to quality x₃

with notations of:

an object {fa da} assumes {da gasnu}

an object {fe da} assumes {zunti tu'a da}

a quality (ka) {fi da} assumes {da mukti}

This may seem extremely wordy and confusing, but in my mind, this would all be very straightforward in a lojban definition (with usage):

lo se smuni .i

troci lo nu dicra .ija

to'e sidju

[add more def'ns here?]

lo nu pilno .i ko'a ko'e ko'i zunti .i

ko'a fasnu gi'e rinka .ija ko'a gasnu .i

ko'e fasnu .ija zunti tu'a ko'e .i

ko'i se ckaji gi'e mukti

And, in my mind, it would be fairly uncomplicated to leave sumti restrictions only on things like {ckaji} and {fasnu}.

mu'o mi'e djos

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