On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Craig Daniel
<craigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Robin Lee Powell
<
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> Well, {dai nai} isn't currently defined at all. Since the default
> is that you're expressing your own emotions (as I've said elsewhere,
> I feel strongly that that's the *only* valid use of bare UI), I'd
> rather use {dai nai} for something useful.
precisely the same way except for exchanging the meanings of dai and
nai dai nai). For any given UI there are four variants of UI dai
available: UI dai, UI nai dai, UI dai nai, UI nai dai nai. Obviously
UI dai and UI nai dai say the same thing about opposite emotions, and
UI dai nai and UI nai dai nai do as well. There are also four meanings
for them to cover: we both feel UI (UI dai), we both feel anti-UI (UI
nai dai), I'm pretty sure you feel UI but I don't (UI dai nai proposal
#1) = I alone feel not-UI (UI nai dai nai proposal #2), and I alone
feel UI (UI dai nai proposal #2) = I'm pretty sure you feel not-UI,
but I don't (UI nai dai nai proposal #1). Proposal 2 would also mean
the fact that a bare UI is dai-neutral is more relevant.
I see no compelling argument for one over the other, but do think
there's a slight reason to prefer the first interpretation: I think
we're going to say "you probably feel UI about that" a lot more than
"I don't care how you feel about it, but I'm pretty UI" for reasons of
pragmatics (though both will certainly have their uses). Since the UI
are aligned such that people tend to use the positive form more often,
UI dai nai should be the one that says something more common about our
feeling of UIness. That's a vote for proposal 1, where UI dai nai
means "I don't share your UI, but you probably feel UI."
- mi'e .kreig.
My two cents -- As a father of five, I quite definitely can/have said "ooh" or "ouch" when my kid feels something (and so yes, I think you can do that in lojban also, if you are hurting because they hurt). And to ME, "dai" does not imply "..and I feel it, too" but simply what you have first said, "you [or whoever is the subject] feels this" (i.e. sympathy, rather than empathy) ("oidai" = "that must have hurt!"). On the other hand, no one mentioned se'i/se'inai, which I think IS the right way to describe the sense that you are feeling something because someone else has experienced something "oi se'inai" ("Ow! That fall you took hurt me")
--gejyspa