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Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.

To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:32 -0800
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No, I really don't want to do that.  I've played with the idea as a
thought experiment, but that's not Lojban.

I want to drop places that give no benefit, like mutce3 and traji3.
It's not even that they're rarely used, as Jonathan Jones said
(although I *am* sick of "by standard" and "under conditions" places
being sprinkled randomly around the gismu list with no rhyme or
reason; so hard to memorize; I would happily drop all of those).
It's that they are *utterly* useless.

  ti lo ka blanu cu traji lo ka mleca

is *exactly the same as*

  ti lo ka to'e blanu cu traji lo ka zmadu

the latter being the default for the x3 place.  The x3 has *no
legitimate use* that can't be acheived by tweaking the x2.  And it
runs around infecting lujvo with its bullshit.

-robin

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:54:41PM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
>   You want to replace all the places that can be replaced with modals, with
> modals, because you find it too hard to remember all the brivla places.
>  Did I misunderstand your rant?
> 
>                 --gejyspa
> 
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> 
> > You started that like you were disagreeing with me, and then went on
> > to say nothing that I disagree with, except that I don't consider
> > BAI cheating.
> >
> > What stance is it that you think I have that you just disagreed
> > with?
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:02:38AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> > >    I'm sorry, Robin, but I agree with arpis (and to whatever extent John
> > E
> > > Clifford agrees).  One of the reasons I studied Loglan in the first place
> > > (and lojban after it) was precisely because of the oddity of the sumti
> > > place system.  If I wanted an system based on prepositional particles,
> > I'd
> > > learn English.  (Well, I did, but I didn't exactly have any choice in the
> > > matter).  Back when I learned Loglan (1975), the didn't even HAVE any
> > > modals that I am aware of (but then again, this was before "Loglan 2"
> > > and/or "Loglan 3" ever came out, so it was just learning from Loglan 1,
> > the
> > > primer, and Loglan 4&5, the dictionary.  So maybe they did have them,
> > and I
> > > was unaware of it (well, I know they had the four why/becauses (the
> > modern
> > > day ki'u, ri'a, mu'i,ni'i), if that counts)).  I always feel like I'm
> > > somehow "cheating" when I use a BAI.  Not that I don't use them.  I do,
> > an
> > > awful lot.  But it just feels very unlojbanic, IMHO.
> > >
> > >   I'm ambivalent about the x2 in he colors.
> > >
> > >            --gejyspa
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}.  *That* is a good use of place
> > > > structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meaning you might
> > > > actually want with no extra syllables.
> > > >
> > > > -Robin
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:
> > > > > Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inherently comparative:
> > > > {blanu} was
> > > > > officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with maybe a few more places --
> > this
> > > > is a
> > > > > Loglan word here, btw).  This always raised the question, when you
> > > > wanted to use
> > > > > the merely attributive sense, "What is it bluer than when it is
> > simply
> > > > blue" and
> > > > > the answer always was (though no one ever seemed to like) "the
> > > > > standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 is relevantly at
> > the
> > > > moment",
> > > > > roughly "blue for a ...".  I was usually elided in the "you know
> > what I
> > > > mean"
> > > > > way, though the opponents always treated it as a "something" elision.
> > > > (Using
> > > > > basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in semantics a lot easier,
> > > > which is
> > > > > why it was used.  I miss it)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> > > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not
> > > > necessarily
> > > > > in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain
> > > > things which
> > > > > are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla}
> > has a
> > > > "by
> > > > > standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes it clear that
> > the
> > > > > "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion of height, and
> > requires
> > > > a
> > > > > different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than
> > three
> > > > > places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or
> > > > pedantic
> > > > > lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more
> > places.
> > > > >
> > > > > {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote:
> > > > > >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > > > >> > These places must die!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would
> > > > > >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be
> > > > > >> replaced by a modal?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Can those places be replaced by a modal?  Which one?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well.  I
> > > > > >think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Consider {cusku}.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for
> > > > > >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}.
> > > > > >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cusku2
> > > > > >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place
> > > > > >> gismu.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >*snrk*
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather
> > > > > >> than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by
> > > > > >> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different
> > > > > >> from all gismu having exactly one place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experiment,
> > > > > >but it's a different language.  Probably a much more verbose one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-Robin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > > >http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > > > > >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > > > > >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > > > > >is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > > > is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > >
> >
> > --
> > http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> 
> -- 
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> 

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

-- 
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Follow-Ups:
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>

References:
- [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
- Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
  - From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>

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