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Re: [lojban] What's the deal with me'ispe and bunspe?
If you want something which focuses strictly on the gender of the in-law (and uses non-culturally neutral familial terms to describe them), you could use:
.i ko'a terspebu'a mi
"he is my brother-in-law (either my sibling's male spouse or my spouse's brother, according to marriage law in my culture)"
.i ko'a terspeme'i mi
"she is my sister-in-law (either my sibling's female spouse or my spouse's sister, according to marriage law in my culture)"
Gender-neutral and non-specific sibling-in-law:
.i ko'a terspetunba mi
"he/she is my sibling-in-law (sibling's spouse or spouse's sibling, according to marriage law in my culture)"
Non-specific in-law in general:
.i ko'a terspeki'i mi
"he/she is related to me via marriage law in my culture"
Otherwise, I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first element modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and bunspe are:
lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -> sister's spouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)
lo bunspe: brother kind-of spouse -> brother's spouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo speni be lo bruna)
And then:
lo speme'i: spouse kind-of sister -> spouse's sister (one kind of sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo mensi be lo speni)
lo spebu'a: spouse kind-of brother -> spouse's brother (one kind of brother-in-law)
(shorthand for lo bruna be lo speni)
I do think the current me'ispe and bunspe definitions are misleading in their use of gendered terms, using English terms with complex and ambiguous meanings. If the definition is looking for search hits, then:
Searching for "brother-in-law" should bring up me'ispe, bunspe, spebu'a and terspebu'a
Searching for "sister-in-law" should bring up me'ispe, bunspe, speme'i and terspeme'i
Searching for "in-law" should bring up... lots of things.
mu'o
On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:30:58 AM UTC-5, aionys wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Pierre Abbat
<phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Sunday, March 04, 2012 23:48:44 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Why is bunspe defined as sister-in-law and me'ispe is brother-in-law?
> That's completely backwards.
>
> Specifically, brother-in-law (me'ispe) is defined as "x1 is the spouse of
> the sister of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
> and sister-in-law (bunspe) is defined as "x1 is the spouse of the brother
> of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
>
> What if the spouse of the sister is a woman? Or the spouse of the brother a
> man? What about the sister or brother of the spouse?
If the spouse of the sister is a woman, she is sister-in-law and me'ispe.
Conversely if the spouse of the brother is a man. The sibling of the spouse cu
spebruna ja spemensi. Whoever wrote the def wasn't thinking that two women
could be married to each other.
The problem is that it is the gender of the married person that is taken into account, not the gender of the person being spoken of. Whether I am a brother-in-law or a sister-in-law has nothing to do with the gender of my married sibling.
Also, why does it matter which of the two is the married one? If Man1 marries Woman1 who has a brother Man2, Man2 is Man1's brother-in-law, and Man1 is Man2's brother-in-law. If Man1 also has a biological or adopted brother Man3, then Man2 and Man3 are also each other's brothers-in-law, even if neither of them are married.
If any sibling from family A marries any sibling from family B, then every sibling in family A is a sibling-in-law to every sibling in family B, except for the two who are married, as they are spouses, not siblings-in-law.
> By the current definitions, a woman who is married to a woman with a sister
> is a brother-in-law, and a woman married to someone with a sister has no
> lujvo. It also doesn't work for the relationship between a sibling of one
> spouse and a sibling of the other spouse.
A brother of one spouse cu me'irspebu'a a brother of the other spouse.
Pierre
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