On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, vruxir
<kextrii@gmail.com> wrote:
...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first element modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and bunspe are:
lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are defined words, said definition determined by the creator, and do not necessarily have anything to do with the meaning of any tanru.
lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -> sister's spouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)
a "sister kind-of spouse" is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of a spouse.
By my definition, {zo me'ispe smuni lu ko'a mensi ko'e lonu speni lu} = "x1 is the sister of x2 by the bond of marriage; x1 is x2's sister-in-law", where {lonu speni} is short for {ko'a goi lo ninmu .onai lo ko'a tunba cu speni lo ko'e tunba .onai ko'e .ije ko'a na speni ko'e}
lo bunspe: brother kind-of spouse -> brother's spouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo speni be lo bruna)
See above.
And then:
lo speme'i: spouse kind-of sister -> spouse's sister (one kind of sister-in-law)
(shorthand for lo mensi be lo speni)
lo spebu'a: spouse kind-of brother -> spouse's brother (one kind of brother-in-law)
(shorthand for lo bruna be lo speni)
I do think the current me'ispe and bunspe definitions are misleading in their use of gendered terms, using English terms with complex and ambiguous meanings.
In English, an in-law is someone who is related to a person because of the in-law's family is married to someone of the other person's family. The exact relationship to the person is the same relationship they have to the married member of their own family plus "in-law", with the single exception that the married couple are not siblings-in-law to each other.
The difference between a sister by birth and a sister by marriage (and by extension, all birth vs. in-law relationships) is the bond. For example, A is a sister-by-birth to C, B is a sister-by-marriage:
.abu mensi cy. lodu'u ra .e ri mintu se rirni
by. mensi cy. lodu'u lo by. se lanzu cu speni lo cy. se lanzu
If the definition is looking for search hits, then:
Searching for "brother-in-law" should bring up me'ispe, bunspe, spebu'a and terspebu'a
Searching for "sister-in-law" should bring up me'ispe, bunspe, speme'i and terspeme'i
Searching for "in-law" should bring up... lots of things.
mu'o
On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:30:58 AM UTC-5, aionys wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Pierre Abbat
<phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Sunday, March 04, 2012 23:48:44 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Why is bunspe defined as sister-in-law and me'ispe is brother-in-law?
> That's completely backwards.
>
> Specifically, brother-in-law (me'ispe) is defined as "x1 is the spouse of
> the sister of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
> and sister-in-law (bunspe) is defined as "x1 is the spouse of the brother
> of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
>
> What if the spouse of the sister is a woman? Or the spouse of the brother a
> man? What about the sister or brother of the spouse?
If the spouse of the sister is a woman, she is sister-in-law and me'ispe.
Conversely if the spouse of the brother is a man. The sibling of the spouse cu
spebruna ja spemensi. Whoever wrote the def wasn't thinking that two women
could be married to each other.
The problem is that it is the gender of the married person that is taken into account, not the gender of the person being spoken of. Whether I am a brother-in-law or a sister-in-law has nothing to do with the gender of my married sibling.
Also, why does it matter which of the two is the married one? If Man1 marries Woman1 who has a brother Man2, Man2 is Man1's brother-in-law, and Man1 is Man2's brother-in-law. If Man1 also has a biological or adopted brother Man3, then Man2 and Man3 are also each other's brothers-in-law, even if neither of them are married.
If any sibling from family A marries any sibling from family B, then every sibling in family A is a sibling-in-law to every sibling in family B, except for the two who are married, as they are spouses, not siblings-in-law.
> By the current definitions, a woman who is married to a woman with a sister
> is a brother-in-law, and a woman married to someone with a sister has no
> lujvo. It also doesn't work for the relationship between a sibling of one
> spouse and a sibling of the other spouse.
A brother of one spouse cu me'irspebu'a a brother of the other spouse.
Pierre
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