Re: [lojban] Homonyms in Stage 3 fu'ivla

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

  Of course, it's sheer nonsense to claim that brivla can't have more
than one definition.  See "facki" for example.  What is really meant
is that there can't be a substantially different definition.  Anyway,
there's a simple solution to the dilemma at hand.  Define "djartako"
to be "x1 is filled and folded tortilla/octopus sashimi made with
additional ingredients/preparation method x2 and associated with
culture x3"   There is nothing that says that fu'ivla can only have
one place, nor that it has to divide the world the way one natlang or
another does (for example, a tirxu can be a whole range of different
species).

           --gejyspa

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Friday, March 02, 2012 23:35:53 guskant wrote:
>> ki'e la'oi Pierre
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>> > On Sunday, February 26, 2012 20:41:18 guskant wrote:
>> >> coi
>> >>
>> >> The algorithm of making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla
>> >> may produce homonyms.
>> >> For example, a Mexican may produce "djartako" from taco, while a
>> >> Japanese may produce "djartako" from octopus dish.
>> >> Is there algorithm to select one of them?
>> >
>> > "djartako" is a type-4, you mean "cidjrtako",
>>
>> I simply used the term "Stage 3" used in the CLL 4.7:
>> "The rafsi categorizes or limits the meaning of the fu'ivla [...].
>> Such a Stage 3 borrowing is the most common kind of fu'ivla."
>> "Stage 4 fu'ivla do not have any rafsi classifier, and are used where
>> a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be made as
>> short as possible."
>> I don't know another classification method.
>
> We decided (I'm not sure when; it may have been before I became a Lojbanist)
> that a Stage 3 fu'ivla has to use a rafsi ending in a consonant. Also, if you
> make a stage-4 fu'ivla but it has the form of a stage-3, you have to change
> it. I've run into this once: "turndun", an Australian Aboriginal word for a
> bullroarer, turned into "turndunu", but that's a type-3 word for some kind of
> structure, so I changed it to "turdunu".
>
>> On the other hand, it seems that homonyms from different languages
>> cannot be managed with reasonable rules. However, "fu'ivla (like other
>> brivla) are not permitted to have more than one definition. (CLL 4.7)"
>>
>> According to CLL 4.7, "Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily on the fly,
>> as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always guarantees
>> a word that cannot violate any of the rules." This statement is not
>> true for "djartako".
>>
>> "Stage 4 fu'ivla require running tests that are not simple to
>> characterize or perform, and should be made only after deliberation
>> and by someone knowledgeable about all the considerations that apply.
>> (CLL 4.7)" Yes, and because of "djartako", running tests must be
>> applied also to Stage 3 fu'ivla.
>
> I think you've found a bug in the Book, and it should be fixed in the next
> edition. I'm not sure how to fix it, though. The bug I found in the fu'irvlazba
> rules (ler(fu) + djamo (a Korean word for a letter that's a component of a
> syllable) = lerndjamo by the rule as it then stood) was easy to fix (in this
> case the interfix must be -l-, thus lerldjamo).
>
>> > There
>> > isn't, and can't be, an algorithm to decide this. There can be a protocol
>> > (the multiparty equivalent of an algorithm).
>>
>> Which protocol can be there?
>
> I don't know, but it could involve a Japanese Lojbanist talking with a Mexican
> Lojbanist.
>
> Pierre
> --
> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
>
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