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[lojban] Re: Rafybri and 4 new rafsi. Suggestion for a new agglutinative style in Lojban
On Apr 25, 2:50 pm, Jacob Errington <nicty...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i doi la gleki zo'u tu'e
> i je'a se nandu lo nu jai galfi lo jbobau i mi tugni la djanatyn djons lo
> du'u su'o lo jbopre goi ko'a troci gi'eku'i iesa'e fliba
> i la deple'u mlana .e la xorlo cu po'o zo'u snada gi'eki'ubo je'a ke
> jbobau sarcu
> i ta'onai tu'a zo co .eja'ebo zoi raf col raf se smuni lo do seldji vau pe'i
lo rafybri valsi cu se demri'a bridi
i ku'i lo lujvo valsi cu se smuni lo frica be lo tanru ja bridi
> i sa'e lu mi joi lo pampe'o cu simxu co kansa co zgana co nu tigni co pendo
> li'u mupli tu'a zo co
> i si'a zo simcolkancolzgacolnuntigycolpe'o mupli ra'oi col
lo lujvo valsi ku na'e vasru lo nenri sumti
> i ku'i lo lujvo pe zo col so'aroi clani dukse vau iepei
> i lo lujvo pe secau tu'a cy. zi'e noi ke'a se mupli zo
> nunpedytigkezyzgakansi'u noi ke'a lujvo fo lo bi'unai clani tanru cu je'a
> zanmau
> i ja'o lo tai lujvo cu jai frili fai lo kamseljmi ki'u lo du'u so'eroiku lo
> seltau cu srana lo za'umoi sumti tu'u
>
> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>
> On 25 April 2012 06:27, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
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> > doi gleki do na pamoi troci lonu xagzengau lo jbobau
> > to lu ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e zenba loka xamgu ko'i kei ko'o li'u smuni toi
> > .i so'a jbopre ti'u lo nintadni to mi cmima toi cu troci lo se go'i
> > .i da'aso'ada na snada
> > .i ro go'i cu te cusku lu ko pamoi nitcu lonu cilre lo jbobau gi'e remoi
> > nitcu lonu jimpe
> > .i ca lonu la'edi'u mulno ku curmi lonu troci li'u
> > .i puti'u lonu nanca li pamu ku la xorlo .e la.dotsaid. se steci lonu snada
>
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Thinking about it, the whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a
> >> really good reason against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making
> >> klama3, the origin, be cnita1, the thing below, logically means placing
> >> cnita2, the thing above, in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in case
> >> mean, in essence "to go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive is
> >> because it means using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning
> >> associated, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up". We have a
> >> word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita means "down"- gapru- so
> >> it would make more sense to use that for a "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gapru
> >> ko'e li'u mintu soi lu ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u}
>
> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> Personally, I think you're overestimating the difficulty. Most lujvo can
> >>> be easily figured out without needing to "memorize" them, as long as you
> >>> /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and their rafsi, which you /have to do
> >>> anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently.
>
> >>> I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously
> >>> learning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high point x2
> >>> to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you conclude, as
> >>> Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that
> >>> "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "nitkla", merely by
> >>> knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also knowing the rafsi thereof.
>
> >>> Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a word you
> >>> don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used since the first
> >>> days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it.
>
> >>> Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although Robin's
> >>> trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people have
> >>> difficulties regarding concepts.
>
> >>> The only time I have trouble with a Lojban word, however, is when the
> >>> meaning is counter-intuitive, that is, when what it means does not seem to
> >>> fit in with what is used to make it, such as me'ispe. Looking at the word,
> >>> without knowing the definition, you would think it has something to do with
> >>> the concepts of "marriage" and "sister", and you may even reach the
> >>> conclusion that it's talking about someone who is a sister because of a
> >>> marriage. This makes sense.
>
> >>> me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law".
>
> >>> My line of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize the
> >>> meaning, or to come with some addition to the language that will make it
> >>> more complicated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition is
> >>> automatically an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ word.
>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise
> >>>> thousands of words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise as
> >>>> native languages.
> >>>> If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok. If you
> >>>> feel {klama lo cnita} is too long to pronounce you might wanna use rafybri.
>
> >>>> The meaning of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered into
> >>>> dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone.
> >>>> The meaning of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add them to
> >>>> dictionaries.
> >>>> Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have to
> >>>> memorise thousands of words.
> >>>> In some cases, though, lujvo is the best solution (take names of plants
> >>>> and animals, for instance). But "to descend" is really not worth it.
>
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>
> >>>>> That's a bias in favor of klama2, which is malgli if it is considered
> >>>>> to be inherent (it isn't malgli in an actual lujvo definition). It could
> >>>>> just as easily be "below type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" i.e.
> >>>>> "rising". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's only
> >>>>> because of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to below" which is
> >>>>> essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3. There is a similar
> >>>>> albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essentially "tunneling", in
> >>>>> the physical sense.
>
> >>>>> On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative
> >>>>> system is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like this.
>
> >>>>> mu'o mi'e latros
>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> At first I must say that I'm not a member of any language-developing
> >>>>>>> committee (BPFK or anything).
> >>>>>>> And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can
> >>>>>>> be enriched.
> >>>>>>> Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaking real
> >>>>>>> Lojban.
> >>>>>>> Everything here should be marked as exclusively experimental and
> >>>>>>> (.a'o) as the source for further consideration.
> >>>>>>> None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed.
>
> >>>>>>> *Rafybri*
> >>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>> I always noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi.
> >>>>>>> Let's look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}.
> >>>>>>> Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "descend"
> >>>>>>> (in English they differ in sounding considerably)
> >>>>>>> nobody can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean "go
> >>>>>>> in a lower position under something" without getting the translation
> >>>>>>> beforehand.
>
> >>>>>> I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy to determine the
> >>>>>> meaning of nitkla.
>
> >>>>>> Let us assume that nitkla is a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita
> >>>>>> klama}, which may or may not be true. {cnita klama} is a "below type-of
> >>>>>> going", i.e.. "going below", i.e. "descending".
>
> >>>>>> How is that difficult to figure out?
>
> >>>>>>> Although anybody is free to say "klama lo cnita" instead
> >>>>>>> it will lead to lengthier speech.
>
> >>>>>>> What I suggest is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo
> >>>>>>> called "rafybri".
> >>>>>>> That's how it works.
> >>>>>>> 1. First rule
>
> >>>>>>> 4 new rafsi
> >>>>>>> zve <= be fe lo
> >>>>>>> zvi <= be fi lo
> >>>>>>> zvo <= be fo lo
> >>>>>>> zvu <= be fu lo
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> jve (fifth rafsi)
>
> >>>>>>> When composing rafybri you replace gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo"
> >>>>>>> etc. with new rafsi of ZVE series.
>
> >>>>>>> 2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead to the emergence of a new
> >>>>>>> meaning. Therefore selpa'i is a synonym for "se prami" (actually the
> >>>>>>> second rule is not a new rule at all).
>
> >>>>>>> Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the length of
> >>>>>>> lojbanic jufra.
> >>>>>>> And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our example we can save even
> >>>>>>> two syllables.
> >>>>>>> klama lo cnita = klama lo dizlo = kla+zve+dzi = klazvedzi
>
> >>>>>>> blanu je crino = blajveri'o. In this case I refer to {blajveri'o} as
> >>>>>>> to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I suggest that no new
> >>>>>>> meaning is added here.
>
> >>>>>>> In other words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the
> >>>>>>> latter have logical operators
> >>>>>>> ("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri).
>
> >>>>>>> --
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> >>>>>>> .
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>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father.
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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